Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little ReWork. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini workshops and behind the scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love, through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s Do The ReWork.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. Today’s guest is another member of our Mindshift membership community and a student of The Art of Selling Art, Tania Gaylor. She is from Adelaide, Australia, and is a portrait photographer there and has been in business for 15 years. The thing I think you’re going to find inspirational about Tania is that the last few years, Tania has experienced some serious adversity. She’s lost her husband and had some health challenges, but through it all, the business that she has built around her best clients, around a sustainable, profitable business has allowed her to have the time to take care of her husband in his last days, to have the space to mourn him and to also still support her family. I think you’re going to find this very inspirational. I know that I always feel inspired by Tania anytime I talk with her. Let’s do it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Today from down under in beautiful Adelaide, Australia, we have one of our favorite Mindshift members, Tania Gaylor. Tania, remind our listeners where you are, what you do. Give us a little bit of information about you.

Tania Gaylor: Sure, no worries. I’m a family portrait photographer based in Adelaide, South Australia. I run my business from home, have done so for the last 15 years. Yeah, that’s me in a nutshell, I suppose.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. Well, you have made amazing progress in the last year or two that I have known you, been privileged to know you, and you’re an amazing member of our Mindshift community and founding member of Art of Selling Art course, so all the good things. Tania, you had some things that you wanted to talk about today. Let’s start with your number one.

Tania Gaylor: Okay, number one, I suppose it’s just being so lucky to have a business that I have, going through what I’ve gone through over the last couple of years and still have a business that wouldn’t say it’s thriving, but it pays the bills at this point in time. Because I’m really only working in it part-time at the moment, because I’m still trying to get through what I’ve gone through.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, and that was you lost your husband?

Tania Gaylor: I lost my husband, yes. For those that don’t know, I lost my husband just over a year ago now. We’ve had his first year anniversary the other day, which was totally devastating. Then the year leading up to that was also quite a challenging year, dealing with his health and everything. And just all the emotions that you deal with afterward, the grief and everything. Then, obviously, I suppose with all the emotional trauma, the body kind of breaks down. As I just briefly mentioned to you off this call. I’m literally getting over a back injury at the moment. Well, not a back injury, a bulging disc, which just happened out of the blue. I wasn’t doing anything serious, it just happened. Obviously to me, it’s just a buildup of everything we were coming up to, leading up to Christmas, New Year, the first year anniversary, Neville’s birthday, everything. We were coming through a bit of a challenging year emotionally, so it was like the body was just saying that you just got to shut down.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, and don’t you think that it always happens at once? Nothing’s ever consecutive. It’s always concurrent when things are going to go and be hard. But I find it so interesting and so typical of your personality that in telling that story, that there’s a positive note about that, that you’re grateful to have the business you have because.

Tania Gaylor: Yeah, because of the clients that I work with. They’re just amazing people. Neville’s situation, I just had to drop everything and just focus on Neville.

Allison Tyler Jones: That was your husband, Neville was your husband?

Tania Gaylor: Yeah, so I just had to just say to clients that I had already scheduled in, I said, “I can’t do it at this point in time.” They were still very understanding, so we rescheduled later on, and they were all happy to wait. I think it was about eight months in the end by the time I went through all the grieving process and could have picked myself back up and actually get out there and photograph again. But they were all understanding, and they were always checking in and seeing how I was going and just making sure I was okay. I was just keeping them updated with how I was feeling as well, so they knew that they weren’t being left in the lurch.

Tania Gaylor: Then when I was ready to photograph, they were just all so great, and they were just so grateful that I was ready to photograph, and they were happy to wait that time for me to be ready for it. And then same thing happened when my back went. I literally, I couldn’t walk. I was using crutches for about two months, and within a matter of days, I had just had to reschedule these appointments that I had leading up to Christmas as well. Busier time of the year and just said, “Look, I can’t do it. I literally can’t walk.” Again, they were just all very understanding and said, “No, we totally understand.” And they were happy to do it, happy to wait, so we just rescheduled everything to the start of the year.

Even though I was still on crutches, I decided to have an assistant helping me and managed to get the photographs taken. And then I was able to artwork them from there.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my goodness.

Tania Gaylor: I think it all just comes down to just staying in touch with them and treating them real people instead of having that barrier between us and them.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. It makes me think of something that my mom used to say about dating, which is we attract who we are. And so clearly just knowing you and knowing what a lovely person you are, you’ve attracted lovely clients that are similar to you. Because I think if I called you and said, I couldn’t make something that you would totally understand. That’s just the kind of person that you are. So you clearly attracted those kind of people, which has created a sustainable business to help you support your family.

Tania Gaylor: Yeah, that’s right. And because I suppose I’m at that price point where I don’t need a lot of clients as well at this point in time. I’m not thriving because I’m not putting a lot of hours into the business at the moment, but I’ve got enough to get me by, which covers probably more than a decent wage. So I wouldn’t say it’s rock bottom wage or anything like that. It’s enough to get us by each week, and I can do one client a month, and that would be sustainable at this point in time. I’m doing a little bit more than that now.

Allison Tyler Jones: Sure, and as you get better, you’ll do more.

Tania Gaylor: That’s right. Yeah-

Allison Tyler Jones: And so-

Tania Gaylor: … prepare myself to.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I know. Oh my gosh, seriously. So what do you attribute that success to? Because I think we all have times when business is busier, business is less busy for whatever reason, whether it’s external circumstances or personal circumstances, whatever. What do you feel like you’ve done? To what do you attribute that success?

Tania Gaylor: I think it’s just keeping it really personal and real. As I said, I treat my clients like friends. We end up having sustainable relationships afterward. I think there’s about four of my really good clients who are just waiting to catch up for a coffee, waiting for me to… Because I wasn’t able to sit down as well when I was hurt. I Was either laying or standing.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh.

Tania Gaylor: So they’re saying, “We’ve got to catch up for a coffee.” I said, “Oh, just wait till I can sit down again and then I’ll be able to have a couple with you.” And it’s just doing those little things. It’s just treating them like real people and like real friends. I’ve kind of always been like that.

Tania Gaylor: When I was first out of school and I was working at the local camera house and selling cameras and all that kind of stuff when I was about, I don’t know, 19-20, which is a long time ago now, I could never do the counter in between me and the customer. I always had to step out from around the counter and actually be on the same side as them and talk to them that way. I always hated that barrier between us.

Allison Tyler Jones: Interesting.

Tania Gaylor: So just dropping that barrier between me and who I’m working with and just really getting to know who they are and understanding their values and what’s important to them.

Allison Tyler Jones: So I have a question for you about that because I think sometimes when we drop the barriers and become friends with… I know that some photographers find that difficult then to charge. How do you keep friends with, but still are able to have a business relationship in that you’re not giving them the quote-unquote friends and family discount or whatever. How have you navigated that?

Tania Gaylor: Earlier on in the piece, earlier on in my business, I should say, I probably found that hard to do as any photographer or any creative. You always find it hard to charge for what you love to do. So later on in my career, and probably more so since I’ve joined with you, it was actually the more I cared for them, the more I felt comfortable charging for it, if that makes any sense. The more value I saw in myself and they could see what I did. And so you still have that element of professionalism there.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.

Tania Gaylor: There’s also that respect there for each other as well. So they can see how much time and effort I put into creating these amazing photographs for them. And they’re happy to pay for it. But I’m not a convincer. I don’t like convincing people that they need me. So if somebody was hemming and hawing about it, well then that’s okay. It may not be the right person for me. So I don’t know if I’ve answered that.

Allison Tyler Jones: No, you did. You did answer it. I think you’re saying that you have that mutual respect, but I feel like as kind and as loving as you are as a person, there is very much a strong core of self-respect there. And I think that’s core, if you have that, it doesn’t actually have to be said. It’s somehow communicated without words. It’s just can state the price and move forward. And, like you said, we don’t have to convince anybody of anything.

Tania Gaylor: Exactly right. Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: So you recently had an experience that I wanted you to share with our listeners about that very topic, where maybe it didn’t work quite so well as we thought that it was going to. So can you tell us about that experience?

Tania Gaylor: All right. So since I’ve started getting back into photography, since all this has been going on, I’ve only been really working with clients of the past. So they all understood my situation. So I kind of started opening up the doors to new clients coming through.

Allison Tyler Jones: Mm-hmm. Untrained clients.

Tania Gaylor: Yes, untrained clients. This gorgeous girl phoned up and there was a bit of a connection there when she found out. She just found out that her grandfather was terminal and didn’t have too much longer to live. And so we connected on that level because of what I went through with my husband. But she was wanting to do a three generation… No, sorry, it ended up being a four generation portrait session before he got two sick. So I went through and I always make sure that I go through everything with all the pricing and everything beforehand. We discussed that she may not need photographs for the walls, but an album would be good. And she loved everything.

Tania Gaylor: I was very upfront with all the pricing and all that over the phone. We ended the phone call and then 10 minutes later she said she wanted to talk to her husband, and 10 minutes later she called back and she said, “Yep, we’re in. We want to do it.” So paid the fee and everything like that. And when we moved forward with it, because it was quite a few people involved in this photograph, we all got together for the planning session at it ended up being her mom’s home. And prior to this, I’d actually sent her the link as well to actually check out my costing for products and all that kind of stuff. Had all the details and everything, but I could have done that better. And I’ll explain that shortly.

Tania Gaylor: So when I got to the actual planning session, I wanted to do a keynote presentation where I go through and explain to the whole family so everyone’s on the same page. I actually said to them, “I’ve spoken about this, but I want everybody to understand what I’m about because I’m very different to most other photographers, and it’s entirely up to you whether you want to have anything for yourselves or whether you don’t, but we’ll discuss all that after we go through all this.” So wanted to have everybody on the same page.

Tania Gaylor: So went through everything, explained to them that I specialize in creating large scale art pieces for my client’s homes, and was showing them samples of the works and just going through the whole process of what I do, the planning session, the portrait session. We choose locations, choose clothing, la, la, la. And there was lots of great conversation happening with all that. They loved the photographs. They recognized a lot of the locations, which were really personal to them, and everything was going great. And then I started talking prices, and then everything just changed because the girl that I was talking to over the phone hadn’t shared anything with the family. So none of them were prepared.

Tania Gaylor: And I could see that she didn’t necessarily explain everything to her husband as well. The initial fee was, but wasn’t aware of what the other costings were because they didn’t look at the pricing link as well. They were just totally unaware of how much extra it would cost. So I said, “Well, maybe you two need to have a little bit of a discussion together about that before we move forward.” So they went out into another room and wanted to have a bit of a discussion about that. And while I was there with the rest of the family, the father-in-law stepped up and got quite aggressive to say the least and saying that I blindsided them.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh.

Tania Gaylor: That it was just ridiculous, the pricing that I had and all that kind of stuff. So I was just kind of taken aback and I don’t like confrontation at all. And I thought, “How did I let this happen?” So it wasn’t a very comfortable situation. So I left off that maybe everyone just needs to have a little bit of a chat about all this, and then I’ll get in touch with the girl tomorrow. So I let them do that. So I touched base with them, and again, cut a very long story short, I said to them that, “Look, I’m happy to refund the money,” which is what I did in the end. I apologized for the misunderstanding, which I probably didn’t really need to do that. I’m kind of kicking myself a little bit for that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, you never have to apologize for being kind.

Tania Gaylor: And there’s no blindsiding because, I mean, if he was blindsided, I could’ve taken the photographs and then shown them the prices and then that would’ve been blindsiding. But because I was up upfront and wanted to make sure that everyone was on the same page and they understood exactly what we’re going to be doing here today. So that saved me a lot of heartache afterwards. So even though it was uncomfortable initially, it was very uncomfortable-

Allison Tyler Jones: It was a success in that you didn’t end up in that same situation having done all the work, but it is still so hard.

Tania Gaylor: It is. I was scared. I was devastated for about, I don’t know, five days straight.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, it’s just ulcer inducing.

Tania Gaylor: But then I was going back through, what could I have done to actually make sure this doesn’t happen again? And a few things that I let slip through the system, and I think it kind of comes down to when you break one of your own rules, it all ends up turning to…

Allison Tyler Jones: So what was that? What did you learn through that? What would you have done differently?

Tania Gaylor: Okay, so I’d probably become quite complacent because I was dealing with a lot of clients that I’ve previously worked with in the past. So when this new client came on board, even though I was really open with her about pricing on the phone, I probably should have reiterated that to her that she needs to share this with the family before moving forward. That’s probably one of the things. The second thing is when I sent her an email to confirm the appointment for the planning session and the other appointments and sent her the link to the pricing page, I should have actually in that email, in the body of the text that I’d sent her. Instead of just sending her the link only, I should have actually reiterated, “This is the pricing. This is the session fee. This is what you’re going to be getting in the session, and this is the starting points of my products.” Albums start at whatever, framed wall portraits start at this price and should have put that in that email then, which I normally have done in the past. Just didn’t do it on this occasion.

Allison Tyler Jones: The other thing I’m thinking of too, because I’ve heard this story, and we’ve had a little bit of this conversation before, but the one thing I was just thinking about too, that’s making me think of going forward with some of my multi-gen sessions too, is that I’m thinking I’m going to say something like, “Who else would need this information? I’m going to send this email out. Who else would need this information, would this info be important for?” And get their emails too, because then maybe somebody will read it. Most people don’t, but maybe somebody will read it. And like you said, having it in the body, even just a starting point rather than just a link, because everybody’s just so busy, they just don’t.

Tania Gaylor: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Anyway, go on. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt.

Tania Gaylor: No, that’s awesome. Yeah, she did say that her mom will probably want some photographs, but I should have said, “Would she like this information as well?”.

Allison Tyler Jones: Who’s going to be there? Who’s going to be at our meeting? Then I can share all this with everybody that’s going to be there if you want to just give me their emails. Because then maybe that could’ve… I still think this is a success. I still count this as a success for you because you didn’t shoot it, but my heart hurts for you being in that room and thinking of you being on their turf and him-

Tania Gaylor: I know.

Allison Tyler Jones: … taking you to task over blindside. Oh my gosh, seriously, who was this guy?

Tania Gaylor: So that was there to try me that day, and good question with is, do I really want to be getting back into photography after-

Allison Tyler Jones: No, exactly.

Tania Gaylor: It does make you question it. And then I thought, and then you get a beautiful client the next time and you just think, “Oh, yeah, I’ve got to be doing this.” Yeah, love it too much.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and then you just turn it around and just think, “Okay, how can I make sure this never happens again? What can I put into place?”

Tania Gaylor: That’s right. And the thing is, I normally have those things in place. It’s just that I didn’t actually follow through with them. So you put these rules in place and the non-negotiables.

Allison Tyler Jones: I think you make a good point too, about how it’s almost impossible to over-communicate. To reiterate, reiterate. And, “I know we said this. Let me just recap what we talked about on the phone. As you know, I said it would be in this range,” but it’s easy to get into jargon, and it’s easy to slip into assumption that they know how we are because we’ve been in it so long, and we think that everybody knows what we know, but they just don’t.

Tania Gaylor: It’s so true. Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Tania Gaylor: So, beautiful, that’s done and dusted now, and lesson learned.

Allison Tyler Jones: I know.

Tania Gaylor: We’re always learning these lessons and sometimes relearning them,

Allison Tyler Jones: Whatever happened. Did you ever talk to the girl again?

Tania Gaylor: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: Or was she mortified? What was the end result? I know you refunded.

Tania Gaylor: So we left off on good terms and everything. Again, I apologized for the misunderstanding and I can’t remember what words I actually used, but what went down went down kind of thing. And she apologized as well, saying that she had a lot of stuff going on and didn’t get a chance to read through the email properly.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, everybody’s just so busy. So what else is going on in your world?

Tania Gaylor: So just starting to get really back into things and just back into photographing again, and editing. Just life is starting to happen again, I suppose, as best as it can.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Your new normal.

Tania Gaylor: The new normal.

Allison Tyler Jones: But to have that base of a clientele that you’ve built over 15 years that are loyal and sustainable and that understand when you have difficult things in your life, I think that’s such a testament to good branding, great customer service, a great customer experience, that you’ve been there for them for all these many years, and now they’ve been there for you through hard times. And to be able to pick that up and have that as a base, it’s easy to underestimate how valuable that is. Not just as from a business standpoint, but also mentally and emotionally to know that those people are there for you and love you and don’t want anybody but Tania Gaylor to photograph their family.

Tania Gaylor: Yeah, and it is a really good feeling. It’s pretty special.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s amazing. Well, you’re a valued member of our Mindshift community. You always have great ideas, and you’re so supportive of everybody around you, and appreciate you taking the time so much. Is there anything that you have that you’d like to leave our listeners with before you go? Any words of encouragement or any words of wisdom that you’ve learned? Anything you want to leave them with?

Tania Gaylor: It’s just all about caring, caring for who you are, caring for the people that you work with, work for, family and friends. Just care and genuinely be interested in them as well. Understanding what’s important to them and making sure that what you offer them and create for them is something that’s really unique and special, and I don’t know.

Allison Tyler Jones: But you do that. You personify that by really just… You definitely are the chill Australian for sure, but you also aren’t playing around when it comes to business. Your prices are serious. You know the value that you bring, so you’re not just a cute surfer girl. You’re legit. You run a legit business. And I love that, and I think it’s so valuable to hear from people that have been in the business for a while, and very often on podcasts in different things, you hear people are like, “Oh, we’re just killing it. We’ve had the best year yet.” And sometimes it’s not that. Sometimes it’s like you just said, you are thriving in that you’re still here, right?

Tania Gaylor: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: You made it through some really hard and difficult things, but thriving is that what would’ve maybe ended somebody’s career, the fact that you have built this core clientele that you have loved so many years, and that in turn has loved you through this difficult time, is just a testament to an amazing business. And that we don’t have to be corporations. We don’t have to be anybody other than who we are and be the best version of ourselves for the best clients for us, and that can sustain us through good times and bad.

Tania Gaylor: Yep, exactly right. And it really just shows your value and how valuable you are to these peoples as well.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. I hope you know how much I appreciate you, and think so highly of you.

Tania Gaylor: And right back at you. Thank you for all that you do as well, Allison.

Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you so much.

Tania Gaylor: Thank you.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.