Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do The ReWork.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. Today, joining me is Kathryn Langsford from Photos by Kathryn in Vancouver, Canada. And this is part one in a two-part series all about serving our clients better. Part one is How to Not Hate Your Clients. Now, why would you ever hate your clients? These are the people that support you, that make your dreams come true, that bring you money and give you money for what it is that you do. But it’s actually pretty easy to get in a situation where you are in, what I call, an adversarial relationship with your clients. If we look at these situations, we can always trace it back to something that we have done wrong. So that’s the bad news, and it’s also the good news because we can control it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Without further ado, let’s jump into part one of our client series How to Not Hate Your Clients with me and Kathryn Langsford. Let’s do it. Well, hello, Ms. Kathryn Langsford from Photos by Kathryn.

Kathryn Langsford: Hello.

Allison Tyler Jones: Canada is in the house.

Kathryn Langsford: That’s right.

Allison Tyler Jones: How’s it going up there?

Kathryn Langsford: It’s good. It’s summer and it’s busy, lots of exciting things happening here.

Allison Tyler Jones: You have lots of exciting things happening in your world.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. This has been a good summer.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. All right, well, I am so glad and grateful because I know that you’re busy slammed and you have a lot going on. You and I have talked about this a lot. This is probably what we talk about the most on our drives on the way home from our studios, is clients, how we’re interacting with them, how we can serve them better, what’s a better way to talk to them, what’s a better way to serve them, all of those things. And so, today’s episode, we’re going to do this as a two part series, dealing with clients. And so today our first episode in the series is going to be How Not to Hate Your Clients.

Kathryn Langsford: Nice.

Allison Tyler Jones: Which isn’t great grammar. But I think that sometimes we get ourselves in a position to where we hate our clients, which is very counterproductive when you want your clients to pay you.

Kathryn Langsford: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So tell me about that. In your world, what would be a situation where you felt like you were frustrated with or were not happy with the client?

Kathryn Langsford: I think if I was getting repeated requests to do things that I don’t want to do. If I was feeling like my clients were always trying to… I mean, these are things that have really happened.

Allison Tyler Jones: Of course.

Kathryn Langsford: If I felt like clients were trying to get a lot for not much money.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, try to either circumvent whatever your policies are or the whole, I’m going to tell so many people about you if you just give me a deal, I’ll feature you on my blog. If you give me this for free, whatever.

Kathryn Langsford: Yup. Or just lots of, “Oh, is it that much?” “Oh, is there anything better you can do?” Trying to get-

Allison Tyler Jones: Sharpen your pencil. Have you heard anybody ask you to do that?

Kathryn Langsford: Exactly. Or maybe things like talking a big talk and then backing off when it comes to ordering photos. I mean, basically anything that involves me having to do a lot of work and getting very little in return.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right.

Kathryn Langsford: I mean, those are just of some of the money related things. There’s other things too. And well, I mean, I guess we’re going to get further and talk about what causes this, but it always comes back to just that I haven’t given them enough information. I haven’t educated them enough.

Allison Tyler Jones: 100%. Exactly. We’ve all been in the Facebook groups of people complaining about clients, photographer Facebook groups, or you get a bunch of photographers together and they’re going to tell their war stories or whatever. And so it can be just exactly what you’re saying. They’re asking you to do things that you don’t want to do. They’re maybe wanting to break your rules or just not respecting the value of what it is that you’re bringing. And so the bad news about that is that it happens. The good news is that there’s something that you can do about it and we are actually completely and totally in control of that. But I think you and I, it took us a while to realize that, sometimes you just feel like you’re a victim of this crazy person. Why is this still happening? Why are people calling and only wanting digital files? Or why are people, they look at this and they just want an entire wall of framed art for $500.

Kathryn Langsford: Why does everybody want to come in October and want things in time for Christmas?

Allison Tyler Jones: Or November? Or December? Yeah. I mean, why not? December 15th? You got 10 days. I mean, come on. Okay. So I think with the conversations that we’ve had, the thing that’s been so helpful about your friendship and our being able to bounce things off of each other is that we really realize almost every single problem is pretty much our fault.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. Everyone.

Allison Tyler Jones: Which that’s the bad news, but it’s also the good news that you can change it.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: So I think of several things. To me, and I’ve spoken about it before, there’s the death spiral. So the death spiral in my world is when you haven’t charged enough for something, so you’ve put something out there and you’ve said, “Okay, this is how much this is.” And then the client buys it at the price that you put on it.

Kathryn Langsford: Why wouldn’t they? It’s a great price.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then all of a sudden you get into the middle of retouching this and realize, I didn’t charge for head swaps or whatever the things I didn’t charge enough for. And then you’re mad because you’re like, look, well, what do they expect for $20 or $100 or whatever. And so then you’re mad and you start getting withholding and you don’t want to do the thing that they’ve asked you to do, but in their mind they’ve paid you money and so you should be happy to do that.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. That’s hard won knowledge, is what that is.

Allison Tyler Jones: 

That’s called the school of hard knocks. And I got a PhD.

Kathryn Langsford: I had to do that probably, oh, good 40, 50 times before I realized my goals need to be well thought out and not given quickly. And maybe even padded with extra, for unknowns that are going to come up or always ended up working for less than I should have.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So the title of this podcast episode is How to Not Hate Your Clients. So I’m going to throw out that number one, the number one way that you end up hating your clients is that you are both on a different page so neither of you are singing from the same hymn book, so to speak. And that comes as a part of not having a process in your business. And you would say process because you’re in Canada.

Kathryn Langsford: I mean, that’s just a small difference, but yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s a small… Tomato tomato. So talk about that. Where you’ve come, process, how you’ve evolved that.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. Well, I mean, we did an episode on processes from pain. All of my processes come from learning the hard way, realizing I don’t want to do that again, I need to put something more formal down so that I can be sure and work this way instead. Some of those things were in the interest of me not losing money, which I have many times. And some were in the interest of wanting to make sure that I’m just not signing up for things I don’t want to do. For example, just an example, clients who I design an album for them and then they want to come in and say, “Can we switch that page and this page? And make this photo smaller? And can we put four on that page instead of three?” And I don’t do that anymore, but before I just felt like, oh, if that’s what she wants, I need to do that.

Kathryn Langsford: And of course we’ll do it. And it really bothered me. And I didn’t like the way the album looked. I felt like this is what the client wants, but I don’t do those things anymore. I just tell them, “No, this is actually the design I had in mind. And I think it’s great because of this and this and this.” They don’t know. I didn’t just randomly pick a template, I custom designed this for them. And there’s a reason that I made these photos larger and then I left room on the pages to breathe and didn’t put 16 photos on there. And once I explain it, they’re fine. But I think when you’re starting a business and growing a business and wanting to make everybody happy, in your mind, your process is to do the thing the client wants.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.

Kathryn Langsford: What I’ve learned is I can work the way I want and the way that makes my business profitable while making people very happy. Those two things can exist together.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. And I think we all kind of come up under the tutelage of the customers always right. And that really, the more luxury the service and the more custom the service you really want to be in the hands of an expert, that’s guiding you through a process because like you say, our clients aren’t graphic designers, they aren’t photographers. They don’t know how to tell a story visually or else they wouldn’t be coming to us. And so it’s up to us to guide them through that and have that, this is how it works. Kind of the umbrella of, let me take you by the hand and now guide you through.

Allison Tyler Jones: And I think also that tends to be a little bit harder for women too. We tend to be a little bit softer as far as just like, oh, I want to accommodate you. And we’re kind of in a soft industry, we’re very loving and we want, oh, let’s show them 75 photos of this individual kid, because maybe that mom will like this one eyebrow, rather than these two are the best images. If you don’t like a smiling one, maybe you like the serious one, but these two are by far and away the favorite, just having the opinion and having the process.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. Correct. And I think part of it is also that we confuse service and serving the client, those terms and ideas. We confuse that with meaning they know what they want and they’re going to ask for it and I’m going to give it to them. And that’s something I had to learn early on that they don’t actually know what they want. Maybe they think they do because they’ve heard about how 100 other photographers work.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.

Kathryn Langsford: What they don’t realize is what I have for them is even better. It’s up to me to educate them. That’s what I’ve learned. It’s up to me to educate people as to what I do and why it’s great for them and not comparing myself to anyone else. So I don’t frame it that way, but they learn in the conversation that, okay, this is different. This isn’t what we’ve done before. And wow, I didn’t even know it was an option to do it that way.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. And so what do you think, I know that these realizations all have been hard won and they’ve also been over a period of time, but is there anything in particular that you can think of an aha moment or whatever, where you were just like, oh wow. They really do not know what they want or that had made you realize that. I’ll tell one of mine while you’re thinking.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah, please do.

Allison Tyler Jones: What I realized is that some clients are more decisive than others. Just bottom line. Some people are just more decisive than others. And I found that once I had my own opinion, this is what I think you should have. This is the layout I think you should have on your wall. If these were my children and my images, this is what I would do with it. And when I proceed from that at the very, very beginning, rather than show them all the images and let’s weed our way through, I’m starting literally here is the wall, here’s what I think you should have. I know, obviously based on the consultation, those that tended to be more indecisive were just like, “Oh yeah, great.” They did not have to decide. They didn’t want to decide.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then I was like, well, am I being too bossy? I kind of felt a little uncomfortable. And then I realized the more quote unquote bossy I got, I realized they actually liked it better. You could see them relax. Whereas when they would first come in, back in the day, it would be like, wait, “Wait, wait, I have to decide now?” And you could just see them, they were very uncomfortable. And then I’m getting annoyed because I’m like, “Well, make a decision. This is not that hard,” but that’s because I’m looking at images all day, every day. So that was another way that I was quote unquote hating on my clients, in that, just decide, it’s not that hard, but really they can’t. And so my job is to show them, just exactly what example you just said on that album, is kind of the bossier, or I call it bossy, or the more expertise you get. I found that it allowed them to relax more and just put themselves in my hand and then they were fine.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. That’s such an awesome example. And that exact experience has happened to me many times, part of it was when I started using ProSelect. I had these walls, these photos of their walls that were populated with my choices of photos when they came in and so many times, which was very different than my previous process, which was what you just described, so many times when they come in and look at these walls that I’ve laid out for them, we don’t even look at the alternate options. They’re just like, “Oh yeah, perfect. Awesome.” “Should we make it three inches bigger?” “Okay.” Just little tweaks and that’s a world of difference. And that was a big, big thing that was really hard for me and I didn’t know how to solve.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and I think sometimes you don’t even realize how far you’ve come too, because I know that I have a client that she comes maybe every two to three years. And the last time she came in, we were discussing framing. So we’re adding to a gallery that has been preexisting. And I had a couple of new frame moldings that my framer had brought over. And so I pulled them out. And I said, “So what do you think about this?” And she literally put her hands up and backed away from the desk. And she’s like, “Oh no, no, no, no, you’re the boss of me. You don’t ask me what I think. No, no, no. We’re not doing that. You decide. You bring it. You hang it. I can’t be making framing decisions.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And I started to laugh because I thought, wow, how far I’ve come. Whereas back in the early first year in business, it was like, here’s my 75 framing options. Let’s figure out, after you’ve already weeded through 75 images, let’s now figure out. And I was wondering why they were ready to crawl out of my studio and could never finalize because they were so exhausted by the process.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah, totally. Yeah, exactly. And then the other thing I was going to say was another sort of aha moment was having conversations with people about starting with the end in mind, before our session. And I was totally worried about it and didn’t think people would… That’s the other thing about all these things is I had to just dive in and try these things because I honestly did not believe that it would work. And I had myself talked out of it before I even tried. So I had to force myself to try these methods of directing how the service was going to be provided.

Kathryn Langsford: And every time it’s just made things better and better. But when people call and want their ideas, yeah, let’s just set up a photo session and end of story. I’ll pay your session fee and we’ll put it on the calendar and done. Which is of course how I used to work. But now talking about, I’m a finished fine art photographer, and the things we look at creating are work for your walls or fine art albums. And let’s talk about what suits you and why don’t you come in and we’ll look at photos of your walls and figure out what’s best for your decor and that kind of conversation. And then from there, we come out with a creative agenda for the session.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And I love that you use that wording and that’s been more of a recent invention for you, but I think that creative agenda or that consultation sets the agenda for your session. I think that wording is so good.

Kathryn Langsford: Well, it’s definitive. People know, okay, this is the goal of this meeting is we’re figuring out what we’re creating. And that has just been… Because another thing that used to bother me was that the session, oh, can you take a photo of him and him together? And oh, can you take a photo of this combination, that combination? And in the moment, I wasn’t going to really say, “Yeah, you’re never going to use that,” but now we know exactly what we’re shooting.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So let me ask you that. Is that happening during sessions now that you’re doing-

Kathryn Langsford: No.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So it’s not happening?

Kathryn Langsford: Nope.

Allison Tyler Jones: So the whole like, oh, let’s just go ahead and get this?

Kathryn Langsford: Nope.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So if somebody were to ask you that, let’s say that it did happen even with all the consultation, we’ve set the creative agenda.

Kathryn Langsford: I might say something like-

Allison Tyler Jones: If somebody said-

Kathryn Langsford: Is that something that we’re working with? We didn’t talk about that. What should I shoot this for? Because the way that I describe it is I need to shoot it in a certain way so that I know it’s going to work for the place we’re putting it or a certain style so that I know it’s going to compliment the room. Or if we’re putting it in an album, I’m going to want more variety of it, so it tells a story. There’s a reason behind my request that I know what you’re doing with things. They already know that piece. They know about my reasons. So if they just get excited about the session, they decide they want 15 different combinations. Then I do ask them, I’m not challenging them. I’m just getting clarity.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so where is that going? Are we going to go ahead and do an album?

Kathryn Langsford: Gallery wall or yeah. And then sometimes one partner will rein in the other, the husband might go like, “Yeah, we don’t need that. We’re not going to do that.”

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.

Kathryn Langsford: Or they might go, “Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. That would be great on a gallery wall.” And one way or the other, they decide, is this just a spontaneous request that has no reason behind it? Or do we need this portrait? And you know what, if they’re talking about it, but they’re kind of not sure, whatever, I’ll shoot it. But what I don’t want is to shoot something that’s just part of the moment and could cost us 20 minutes of blood, sweat, and tears that I don’t really want to expend if not necessary.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Exactly. And I think the ones that fall into that category in my mind the most are usually the individuals of the kids, those take a while to do. And those are-

Kathryn Langsford: Or the individual parents with the kids that sometimes…

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh, no. Yeah, no. Yeah. Unless somebody’s ill or…

Kathryn Langsford: They want it for an office or whatever, or a bedroom that’s fine. So yeah. I mean, that has been a game changer to talk about what are we doing and why are we doing it and how much is it going to cost? We’ve talked ad nauseam about the pre-session consult, but it all comes back to that. Educating the client is the way that you make sure that they know exactly what we’re doing and that they have an informed ability to decide whether that works for them. And they’re either all in, or they’re, maybe this is too expensive or maybe it’s too much of a big deal or whatever. And that’s fine too, because those people, maybe it’s too expensive, maybe it’s too much of a big deal. They would have decided that anyway, they just would’ve decided after I did all this work for them and then I would hate them.

Allison Tyler Jones: Then you would hate them. And the thing is it’s not fair to them because you really weren’t honest. Okay. So I think we can put everything that we’ve just said up to this point is under the category of transparency upfront, educational and transparency. Being info early and often not being afraid to say exactly what we do, not being afraid to say exactly what we don’t do and not being afraid to quote prices early and often I think.

Kathryn Langsford: Yup.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So next I think one of the ways that we end up hating our clients is when our clients are breaking our rules. So let’s say that we’ve educated. I think there are a lot of photographers out there that are convinced of the value of doing in person sales, of doing consultations, of doing business in this way. But then something happens where we get a request for something that we either don’t do, don’t want to do, isn’t in the best interest of our business or even the client. And so then we fold and break our own rules and then that makes us hate her clients.

Kathryn Langsford: So I have a perfect example that just happened today.

Allison Tyler Jones: Do it. Tell me.

Kathryn Langsford: So I have a great client, she’s new, she’s new and she’s been educated perfectly and she follows rules perfectly and she’s ideal. So she’s great. And I love her. This is the second time she’s come to me within a year. We’re just working out her album and her fine art and stuff. And she’s purchased her digital files, which people can do with me after they’ve purchased a certain amount of art. And she asked me, “Can I ask you? Can I get also a set of color files?” I’m a black and white portrait photographer.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exclusively black and white.

Kathryn Langsford: Only black and white. “Can I get a set of color files? I just love my daughter’s blue eyes.” Now in the past, I would’ve done that. I would’ve said, “Yeah, sure.” Because it’s not hard for me. I mean, just two sets of digital files. I would’ve done that and it’s not about the money either. I just would’ve thought, oh, she wants that, but I know how that’s going to go. Then she’s going to want color photos in the album. Then she’s going to want a color photo on the wall.

Kathryn Langsford: So even though it’s easy for me to say yes to that, I don’t want her to start wanting color art from me, because that is not what I want to do. And so what I said to her was I told her, “I totally see why you would ask that. She does have such gorgeous blue eyes. My work is exclusively black and white. I’m very committed to that.” And I told her, “That being said, if there’s one file that you’d really love to see her eyes in, I will include that in your set.” But yeah. I mean, that’s what I said.

Kathryn Langsford: I think that’s limited enough that it’s not going in the album. We’re not printing it and I will not end up… Because that person is at the beginning, her kids are very young. So as she goes on, she’s just going to want more color and more color and more color. I will have already said yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: And you will hate her.

Kathryn Langsford: So yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So I would say that would fall under the category of, that we have to be thoughtful before we just fold and break a rule. We are running luxury businesses, service businesses that are very custom to each individual client. So of course there are things that we do for each individual client. I mean, we have our rules, but it’s not hard and fast on everything. Meaning everything we do is custom. So the sizes, we’re not locked in, you have to have only 8×10, 11×14, 11×16. It can be shaped whatever size we want, but we aren’t selling gift prints like floppy 8x10s, unless something has already gone on the wall or in an album. Or in your business, you’re not selling a set of digital files unless they have a minimum, very high spend of fine art.

Allison Tyler Jones: So those are rules that we’re not going to break because those are going to be the spine of the profitability of our business and then we won’t be in business. But like you say, somebody might have a request like that, but before you just roll over and say, okay, customer’s always right, they’re asking for it, I’m going to give it to them. We have to look further down the line and think exactly what you just said. Okay. I know where this is going. As somebody that’s earlier in their career might not know where it’s going. Might just think, okay, well she wants it. I’m going to give it to her, but you’ve got to think, okay, so then next year and the year after that and the year after that.

Kathryn Langsford: Yes is forever. If you say yes to something now, it’s forever. They’re going to want it every year. And really, it’s going to get difficult if you want to say no next year.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.

Kathryn Langsford: If it’s something that’s okay for you that yes, it’s going to be forever. But yeah, I know that by now, especially about the color. Because I don’t like, that’s not my brand, it’s not my look. And sure, it’s one thing of a baby in a blue dress, blue eyes and it looks like, that’s great, but it doesn’t always make sense that in my eyes to have a photo be in color and I just don’t want to lock myself into that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, there’s so many considerations there, like future business, who are they telling as far as the deal they got. I got her in there and I beat her down and she… Oh yeah. She’ll give you all color files too. I mean, don’t worry that she’s black and white. So the word gets out and then you set the precedent. Anybody that’s a mother knows all about the precedent. Attorneys have nothing on moms. You set that precedent one time and that kid’s going to be nagging you for that until they are driving out of your house to go to college.

Kathryn Langsford: Or not even nagging, just assuming. This year I brought this because I want my color photos to have this dress.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So I think that’s really good, so not pricing too low. Your pricing should be profitable for your business also where you’re happy to do it. You’ve educated our clients ahead of time so that they know what’s coming. We’ve been transparent early and often, we’ve educated them. And then before we say yes to anything, we have to look ahead and see, are we entering into the lab unintended consequence land? And are we going to be happy and love this client if we say yes to this now thinking that we might be doing it for forever?

Kathryn Langsford: And one more on that point. Is there are many situations where people are okay with you saying no, they’re just asking.

Allison Tyler Jones: 100%.

Kathryn Langsford: They’re just asking, “Oh, can we get this?” Or, “Oh, could we do it this way?” And sometimes I say, “No, I don’t do that actually.” “Oh, okay.”

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Kathryn Langsford: I mean, really not a big deal. It’s not a big deal. We think oh no, I can’t say no. Oh, she’s going to be upset. And it’s like, they’re just asking.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then they’ve been trained by other photographers just, poorly trained too. Like, oh, let’s just use those six images on the back of the card. Nope. Philosophically opposed.

Kathryn Langsford: Yeah. Exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: So I think we have a pause here and I think I’m just realizing what I realized a while back is that anything that we’re doing in our business that is causing us to have not positive feelings toward any client means that we’re doing something wrong. Basically. There’s something wrong with the process. So if it’s pricing, then maybe your pricing is too low because you’re not charging enough, so you’re feeling resentful of fulfilling the service that you have put out there at X price. And if you feel like that you’re being taken advantage of, we only have to look at ourselves because we set the price, our clients didn’t set the price. If we’ve broken our own rules, if we have not been transparent, have not educated our client early and often.

Allison Tyler Jones: So I think just watching for that feeling, that feeling of resentment and that feeling of like, ugh, this is so annoying. We have to look back and go, okay, wait a minute. Who am I really annoyed at here? And is this something that I set up and created? And to me then I’m always happy when the answer to that is yes, because then I realize the next time I can do better. And it pulls me back from being a victim. It pulls me back from being negative to a client. And so then I can just suck it up on this one and realize okay, you did it wrong. And then move forward in a more positive way with the next client.

Kathryn Langsford: And in learning this, maybe we can look at the opposite. What are the things we do that we feel like, oh, I love working like this. Oh, I love this kind of client. Oh, I love it when things go like this. And that can be part of the lesson as well. What have I done here that makes it that way?

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. Which is part two of our series, which is what we’re going to do next week. And that is finding the good client, bad client. So what makes the client good? What makes the client bad? And I think we’ve highlighted that it all comes down to how we run our business.

Kathryn Langsford: Yep.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Well, I appreciate you being here today. I’m excited to talk to you about-

Kathryn Langsford: I always love talking to you.

Allison Tyler Jones: Part two of better clients. So thank you as always, you have just the best words and the best… That’s why we’re good together.

Kathryn Langsford: Agree. We’re great together.

Allison Tyler Jones: Have I told you lately how much I appreciate you being here? I know that you have so many demands on your time and so many demands on your attention. You could be watching Netflix. You could be listening to a true crime podcast, but you’ve spent time here at The ReWork learning to make your portrait business better. And that really means a lot to me.

Allison Tyler Jones: If there’s somebody that you feel like could benefit from this episode, that you could help them and help us spread the word in helping other portrait photographers build better businesses. Please go to where you’re listening to this episode and hit that share button and share it with them. And if you have time and can give us a review, you don’t even understand how much that means to a little tiny podcast like ours, to see those reviews and see how we’re helping. And if you have another minute and can send me a DM and let us know what you would like to hear in the future, what you really enjoyed hearing about, maybe things that weren’t that great, how we can do better. We always want to do better. And we always want to support the portrait photography industry in helping you build the best businesses ever. Thanks again, so much, for being here.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at and on Instagram at do.the.rework.


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