Recorded: Welcome to The Rework with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams, all it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini workshops, and behind the scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do The Rework.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The Rework. Today’s episode is part two in our dad series, What Do Real Men Think About Family Portraits? And our guest is Mr. Tommy Stapley, a real estate developer in the Phoenix area, and dad, and a lover of family portraits. And also a great ambassador and referrer for us. I’ve had many clients come in and say that they have talked with Tommy and that he’s just told them, “Look, just refinance your house. Whatever you have to do, it’s totally worth it. Just get the portraits done.” So I can’t wait for you to hear our discussion. He’s hilarious and it’s interesting to hear what he has to say about why family portraits are important to him. Let’s do it. Next on our series of dads is Mr. Tom Stapley, real estate… What do you call yourself? Real estate developer? Real estate guru? Magician? What are you? What’s your situation?
Tommy Stapley: I’m just another real estate guy. I don’t know what you’d call that.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re a really good real estate guy.
Tommy Stapley: I would say at our core, what we do is we build real estate platforms that are scalable. So we did single family rentals, a large real estate platform around single family rental homes. And then we have a platform around manufactured housing where we own and operate manufactured housing and RV communities.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, love it. So we have been working together for a few years. How old were the kids when you guys first came?
Tommy Stapley: Well, Tag, we came his senior year and he graduated six years ago. So it’s been like six, seven years almost.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Tommy Stapley: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Tommy Stapley: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. So our podcast is geared to portrait photographers, other people that do what I do. And our industry has some issues in that some photographers, like many industries, we’re so busy creating the donuts that we aren’t figuring out how a better way to create the donuts, if that makes sense, so invested in the craft. And the reason why we’re doing this interview is that one of the most commonly asked questions that I get is, “Well, how do you handle the dads, because they’re such a pain in the butt?” The moms come in, they’re so excited about pictures, they’re so excited about doing portraits, and then the dad comes in and just rains on the parade and is like, “I’m not paying that kind of money for pictures,” or whatever. And you may or may not know this, but historically most men have not been super excited about having their portraits taken. But I found that with you, you were just as excited as Lee, your wife. You were fully involved in it. And so I’m just wondering, tell me about that. Why were you so invested?
Tommy Stapley: So I need to give you… There’s a little bit of background here. So first of all, as you noted, picture day, the wives typically are really happy. My wife in particular, picture day is the greatest day of the year for her. We joke with her that she likes it more than Christmas.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, because she’s absolutely drop dead gorgeous and looks really amazing in pictures.
Tommy Stapley: This is true. Yes, I agree with that. And there’s been times where I wasn’t as excited about pictures, but I really love my wife and I want to have a good relationship with her and I want to support her and she’s my favorite person in the world, so I’ve been on board for years, because she likes it so much. I also grew up with a mother who hated the way she looked. She was a little bit insecure about herself in photographs. When she tries to smile for a photograph, it’s awkward for her, and so she has this awkward smile and she hates it. And so we had zero family pictures on the walls growing up. And so I’d go to my friends’ houses and they had family pictures and I thought that was cool and that was what I thought was normal, but my mom just liked art on the walls because she didn’t like herself. So long story short… Actually, you just shot my parents for their mission pictures.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.
Tommy Stapley: Okay.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.
Tommy Stapley: So you got a flavor of my mom’s weakness around cameras.
Allison Tyler Jones: And she is so darling.
Tommy Stapley: I know, I know. I don’t understand.
Allison Tyler Jones: I had literally two, probably, hour long shrink sessions with her.
Tommy Stapley: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Tommy Stapley: She’s very insecure.
Allison Tyler Jones: It was borderline waterboarding your mother to get her to see that she… And your dad was like, “You’re gorgeous. Why are we having this conversation?”
Tommy Stapley: Of course, of course. Yeah, that’s my life. That’s been my childhood. And even when we would do photographs, my mom would fret over them and they would be on the floor unframed for years, and then they never made it to the walls. Some of them are on the walls now, but it took decades. So then my wife, I don’t think we’ve ever missed family pictures. In fact, she would do it twice a year if she could. So like I said, I love my wife and she’s my favorite person in the world, so I want to support her. So it’s not a personal thing. It’s more of a relationship thing for me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. I love that. It’s a good insight.
Tommy Stapley: And we had seen a lot of your photographs on friend’s walls and in Christmas cards. Christmas cards are her favorite thing in the world. In fact, we still have an entire massive… You saw our house, you were there the other day.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Tommy Stapley: Did you see all the Christmas cards up?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.
Tommy Stapley: They stay up until after Easter. She loves them. And so we’d always seen your work on our walls from other friends and Christmas cards and then in homes of Greg Arnett or Fred and Cherise Lyons or friends, we had seen your work, or the Sparks, there’s another one. And so Lee had always said, “Okay, I know it’s real expensive, but we’re going to do it.” She was prepping me for years. “We’re going to do it when Tag graduates.” And I was like, “Okay, that’s fine. We’ll do it when Tag graduates.” And so I was mentally ready to come in. And then for me it was a fantastic experience, the buildup and how you approach and how you soften the kids because teenage kids in photographs, you would think that you’re dipping their toes in acid or something, the way they act.
Allison Tyler Jones: Totally.
Tommy Stapley: The way that you approach it and proactively soften them and get them to let their guards down, the end product is fantastic. And I had heard about it, but I had no idea in-person what it was. It was a great experience because you played fun music and you were super engaging and entertaining where you distracted them enough that they let their guards down and you knew their hobbies, you did their research, you knew Tag liked basketball and you knew Swayze was a dancer, and so you were pushing their buttons to get them to be themselves. No other photographer I’ve ever worked with has ever done.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that.
Tommy Stapley: And so your preparation for the photos paid massive dividends in my opinion. And most photographers, it’s like, “Hey, meet me at five o’clock at the such and such waterfall or this intersection.” And you roll up and the photographer’s like, “All right, you ready?” And then you start walking towards where they’re going to shoot your photos or something. And the kids are all pissed as hell and the wife is like, “Oh, my hair is blowing.” And it was the opposite experience. And I get it, studios are very different than outdoor and most moms like to mix it up. So for me, that was the biggest difference was your preparation, your knowledge of our family, and then just how everyone was softened so much and just having fun together with you. It was a fun experience.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that.
Tommy Stapley: No one left there mad.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, good. Yeah. That’s what we always strive for, but it’s good to hear what was important to you. So you don’t miss a year, like you said, but I don’t photograph your family every single year. And so tell me about that, because I think sometimes some photographers will think, “Well, they have to come every year or I’m not doing it right,” or whatever. So tell me about that because we’ve worked together twice.
Tommy Stapley: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: We did it when Tag graduated and then we did just a couple of years ago. So talk to me about that.
Tommy Stapley: I would say-
Allison Tyler Jones: I have no idea what you’re going to say. I’m scared actually right now.
Tommy Stapley: Okay, don’t be scared.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Tommy Stapley: So I would say on a scale of one to 10, your costs are closer to a 10.
Allison Tyler Jones: For sure. Absolutely.
Tommy Stapley: View your photography and your end product, we view it as more like art. And so to come in every year to your studio, it’s a similar product and it’s incredible. But for Lee, my wife, she really wants to mix it up and have it be different. There’s been years we’ve done it… And like I told you, she loves Christmas cards, and so she’s always looking at everyone’s cards going, “Oh, that’s really cool how they did this.” So we’ve done Arizona, we’ve done the Salt Flats. We drove all the way to the Salt Flats.
Allison Tyler Jones: You travel, so you’ll do Park City or…?
Tommy Stapley: Yeah, we did Park City Main Street one year. And Lee really likes the variety. She’s super into it. She’s into more than most women. For example, my partner, Marcus, who just came in to see you, his wife does not. He tells me that she really doesn’t care about photographs and clothes where Lee will be planning outfits for pictures for six months. Well, every time she buys something online, that’s her reason.
Allison Tyler Jones: $30,000 later we’re-
Tommy Stapley: Yeah, we joke like, “Oh, let me guess, family pictures.” And she’s like-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.
Tommy Stapley: It’s a good get out of jail free card for her for a long time. So Lee likes to mix it up and she views really your product as those big milestone years, Tag’s graduation, we came in, then he came home from his mission and Keegan was graduating and so that was a milestone year. And so she really wants to document that with your photos, but then in the off years, she likes to mix it up.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. Okay, so now typically what we’ve done for you is a big family portrait that hangs over your fireplace in your formal living. And then you have your gallery that’s in your family room, and then we’re just getting ready to do your gallery in your basement. All that stuff’s getting framed right now. So what has that been like as far as having those images in your home, as the dad? And you can speak to what Lee thinks about it too. But I’m just interested to think what is your thought behind that? What does that do for you?
Tommy Stapley: For me, it’s definitely a sense of it’s really fun. It’s super fun. Everyone that comes into our home goes to that gallery wall and stands in front of it, and it’s a conversation piece because Swayze was smaller and now Swayze’s graduating. I’m sure we’re going to come in next year when Swayze graduates, and then we’ll have a couple of in-laws in the photos. So that’ll be a big milestone year. It’s a conversation piece. And then in the basement, the gallery wall down there, it’s super fun because, like I said, she’s never missed a year. And so we have all of those years and so it’s really, really fun. And the kids come home and they’re drawn to it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Are they? Okay. That’s interesting.
Tommy Stapley: Yeah. They’re drawn to it and it’s everything from their baby photos to our first family photo to a lot of your work. And they’re drawn to it and it’s super fun as a family to have those pieces. And then all the visitors to our home seem like they really are always drawn there.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I have my gallery in my home too. It seems like it’s just a magnet for people to look at that and watch your family grow up. The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about is every business talks about having a brand ambassador or somebody that’s going to talk about you or whatever. And I have had more men come in as soon as they say that they know Tommy Stapley, I already know that you’ve given them the hard sell on ATJ, which is hilarious. So the picture that lives in your-
Tommy Stapley:
Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. So what happened with that, I just want to tell that story and you can tell your part of it. But his wife called to book a session and we quoted her some prices and she was kind of like, “Oh, I don’t know. Let me talk to my husband.” So she talks to her husband and he’s like, “There is no way that we’re doing that. I’m going to go talk to Tommy because he has some really good pictures on his wall and we’re just going to use his photographer.” And so he came into you and what happened?
Tommy Stapley: Yeah, they’re right here. I’m looking at them right on my office wall.
Allison Tyler Jones: So he came-
Tommy Stapley: I don’t remember it exactly, but I remember he came in, he says, “Hey, what’s going on?” I just said, “Look, it is what it is. You’re not going to regret it. It’s like you have to view it as you’re investing in art almost, but it’s your family and it’s your walls. And you’ll cherish those pictures forever. So just let your guard down. It’s fine. You won’t regret it. I’ve done it twice now and you haven’t regretted it, and I’m sure we’re going to do it more.” And I said, “Look, I’m going to warn you, there is a little bit of sticker shock. You’re 100% right. I’m not going to take that away, but just plug your nose and write the check and you won’t think about it ever again. And every time you look at those photos, you will be very happy that you made that investment.”
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, and what he actually said to me is he’s like, “Well, Tommy said, just refinance your house and get a HELOC on your mortgage.”
Tommy Stapley: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I probably was like, “Look, just go get a second mortgage and just do it.”
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m like, “Dude, it’s not that much. Come on, give me a break.”
Tommy Stapley: No, it’s not. It’s just the cost of a Honda Civic.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, a used one.
Tommy Stapley: I know. I’m kidding. I’m kidding. I’m kidding.
Allison Tyler Jones: Totally. No, but-
Tommy Stapley: If you go crazy like Fred, and you do the books and you do the whole gallery wall, you could buy the car.
Allison Tyler Jones: It could be-
Tommy Stapley: But it’s okay. It’s okay. It’s a good car. It’s a nice one.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s a good car and when you’re dead, it’s going to still be here. Yes.
Tommy Stapley: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s all good. Yes. So I appreciate that because I think men appreciate knowing that ahead of time. I don’t like the finagle, using the emotional, because with women have historically been sold to in an emotional way, and our industry actually is set up to if they cry, they buy, take a bunch of pictures, get them emotional, and try to get them to buy them all. And I don’t actually work like that. I work, “Let’s sit down and get a game plan of what you actually need and then let me quote that.” And then if that’s too much, then we’ll adjust it or we won’t do it. Go use a different photographer for a couple of years and then come to me when it’s important. So I think men appreciate that more direct I’m not afraid to talk about money.
Tommy Stapley: And before we ever came in, I knew roughly what it was going… The cost and I was prepared. I think Greg Arnett, like I said, Greg and Fred, and Fred had kind of told me.
Allison Tyler Jones: And you guys all love to get together and talk smack about me. Like, “Oh my gosh, that ATJ.”
Tommy Stapley: No, no, no. We all, everyone’s so happy they did it.
Allison Tyler Jones: I know. It’s true. And you guys are awesome. Well, is there anything else that you feel like even just having had your family documented every year, I know that it makes your wife happy, but as a dad and thinking into the future, what value has that been for your family?
Tommy Stapley: That’s a tough question. It’s hard to describe a value to it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Tommy Stapley: I don’t know. I feel super lucky. My wife and I love each other and our marriage seems… We love to be around each other and our kids, these moments and capturing these moments together and being able to look back on them and just smile. Whether it’s silly pictures on vacations or really professional documented studio portraits like you do, there’s just something about looking back on that and the happiness it brings you and it reminds you of, it takes you back to that moment. It’s almost like a really good song. There’s certain music, you hear a song and it takes you right back to a certain moment or a really good memory. And for us, the family portraits and the family pictures really do that.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, and you guys have a unique dynamic that is really nice. You can feel how much you and Lee love each other. And I feel like you probably look at in your business, there’s certain clients or people that you deal with that are your best clients, and they all will share a common element. And I think the common element I see in these dads that we love so much is that, to me, the highest compliment to any man is that you’re a family man and you love your wife, you love your kids, and you really see them for who they are. All the funny little in between things that they do and their quirks and their personality. And you’re not just wearing it like a badge of like, “Okay, I had these kids and I’m this guy.” It’s like you really know them as people and really appreciate them as people. And so when you have those images on the wall, you can see that personality. It’s really so amazing and such an honor to do it for you. And I appreciate you taking the time to do this today, and it’s been awesome.
Tommy Stapley: Yeah, it’s been fun. It’s great working with you, Allison. I love it.
Allison Tyler Jones: The entire reason I started this podcast is because I am convinced I have the best job in the world. Being a portrait photographer fulfills so many needs, it’s just meaningful. I get to be with amazing clients and their darling kids, and it’s just so rewarding in so many ways. And I know that there are so many talented, amazing photographers out there that could be making a living, a better living for their family if they just tweaked a few things in their business. So if you know somebody who’s struggling or that you know this podcast could help, please share it with them. Wherever you listen to your podcast, hit that little share link and send it to them because we want everybody to do better. And if you have a minute and you can give us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening to your podcast, it makes a huge difference in getting us exposure so that more and more photographers can learn how to have better businesses. So share and review if you have a minute, I’d so appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.
