Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the rework.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. Ooh, we have some fun for you. Today’s podcast episode is the first in a series of three that is titled What Real Men Think About Family Portraits. One of the most commonly asked questions I get is, “How do you get the dads onboard?” Historically, most men are not really into having their portraits taken, and even if they are, they aren’t really into spending some big money to do so.
Allison Tyler Jones In our studio, we are so lucky that we have some awesome dad clients, who not only actually enjoy having their family portraits created, but are the ones that are driving the family portrait updates. They’re the ones that are calling. They’re the ones that are making the appointments. They want to make it happen. They also are amazing ambassadors for us as well. So I decided to interview for this series three of our favorite dad clients and just pick their brain about why they love portraits. What is it about working with us that makes it better for them than maybe other experiences that they’ve had?
Allison Tyler Jones The answers were … I didn’t know what they were, going into it. I had no idea ahead of time what they were going to say. This was recorded. I sent them some questions, and I had no idea what the answers were going to be. So it was really fun and surprising to hear what their answers were. So our first guest is Dr. Ben Larrabee, an orthodontist here in the Phoenix Valley. We are going to kick the whole thing off with him, and he is quite a personality. So let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones Okay. So Dr. Ben Larrabee, thank you for being here today. Appreciate it. Our ReWork podcast is an audience of portrait photographers who want to build better brands, more sustainable businesses, and so we just are talking to experts and different people every week. But why I wanted to talk to you is because you are not only an amazing orthodontist and a business leader in our community, but you also happen to be an ATJ photo client, one of the more remarkable new ones of recent years.
Ben Larrabee: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. So we’re two years in. We’ve photographed your family twice. You may or may not know this, but historically, men don’t love portraits.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah, I can see that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, they don’t love it. So what I would love for you to do is … Well, first tell me about you. Tell our listeners about who you are, what you do, all that kind of thing.
Ben Larrabee: Well, I own Advanced Orthodontics, an orthodontic practice that I love and love what I do and something that’s a career that has really evolved for me, because I’m the first one of my family that’s went this route and into the business component of it. My mom’s a teacher. My dad’s an accountant. So that’s been a whole realm of development. From there, as you get into the business portion of it, realizing all the things … Every detail counts and what it transpires to be, and then you start to make so many decisions. Then you start to get retrospective, a big picture thing, and say, “Okay.” When I’m going through these decisions, it has to stay with core principles and the goals you’re setting for yourself. You get branches of choosing a photographer. You get a branch of choosing the air conditioning team you work with, the contractor for your new office.
Ben Larrabee: Some simple principles that I’ve evolved, I try to keep it simple and keep it, as I say, Midwest to myself. Everything I do, I want to be in love with it, from the tie I put on, the shirt I buy, the photographer I choose. So I think I even told you this, where we built the house, that when I met my architect, I said, “I don’t know if I can afford this gentleman, but if I can’t, I’m going to wait until I can.” That was it.
Ben Larrabee: I think I met you, well, three months after that, and I’d heard all these great things and see the pictures here and there for our colleagues in the area. That was the exact same feeling that happened with you. Yes, so you look at it something like, “If I can’t afford it, it’s not the right time, what it is. This is what I want to have in my circle,” and just go along with that approach. Same thing with managing my team and bringing on teammates. When we go through interview processes, you can only ask so many questions to people. Then it’s really about how did they answer them, and do they have good energy to it, that that’s someone you want to invest your time into?
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Yeah, I love that. Well, having been in your practice, both of your practices, every detail is clearly thought through. So you’re obviously very attuned to that. So I want to go back to the historically men hating portraits. So usually, our clients most typically are women. It’s the moms that are contacting us, the moms that are booking the portrait sessions. But you were very involved. Carly called and booked, but you were very involved. You came to the consultation. You were very involved from the very beginning. So how did you hear about us? What did that look like when we came on your radar?
Ben Larrabee: I had heard about you from our colleagues that had done it with their families. I know the picture grabbed my eye. It was different. I feel like in so many trades out there, my profession, too, there’s lots in our trade, but there’s different levels. I work so hard to be at the top of my level of mine that even photography that we use in our office.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.
Ben Larrabee: We heard a lot, learned a lot about it. I think I can at least catch … I don’t know ATJ, but I can catch a good lighting and someone who does something special. So when I saw those and I asked a friend of mine, “Hey, who was this picture taken by? This is awesome. I’d like to meet the photographer,” and then dove into it and then reached out to you and went from there. I think I’m privy to other dads and other husbands. I think they would all like to be there, too. Sometimes they just don’t have the time. I’m fortunate that the way I’ve set up things is that I have certain windows set aside so I can talk with you this morning. So I have that benefit, as some may not, on that behalf.
Ben Larrabee: But I knew it was something wonderful, and if I’m building this house and I hear this additional … Something I think that you have a differentiator is not only do you take great pictures and have a vision and I can just sit back and let someone else do their craft, which I enjoy that, because I feel like I’m always on 100% in everything I do. But if I have this circle of all these wonderful teammates, would be my family photographer, my contractor, and all the other components that we use, it is nice to allow everyone to excel at their thing and just let them go with it and trust them.
Allison Tyler Jones: Which isn’t that your best clients? Aren’t your best patients the ones that are like, “Look, I don’t know, but I know you do, so whatever you think”-
Ben Larrabee: Yeah, and I think you do better for those, too, because you can really dive into it and know they’re going to appreciate what they’re-
Allison Tyler Jones: They’re not trying to micromanage you or whatever.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. Yep.
Allison Tyler Jones: So it’s funny that probably one of the most commonly asked questions I get from other portrait photographers is, “How do you handle the dads? Isn’t that just the worst part?” It’s so funny, because I’m like, “Actually, I love the dads. The dads are my favorite.” But I think you’re right in that I think people are busy. Men are busy. Women tend to, I guess, just to be completely … I don’t know if this is sexist. I’m sure it is. But we tend to think of women as more nurturing and love the softer side, and they’re more emotional.
Allison Tyler Jones: But I feel like my dads that are really into it are equally … They love their kids. They’re all about it. They might be busy, but they don’t have time to do their job and your job. So it’s like what you’re saying. They need somebody … especially somebody that’s running their own business, and that’s typically my clients. They have their own businesses. They don’t have time to be running their business, and then when you are standing there with your camera, going, “Well, what do you think?”, it’s like, “I don’t know. You’re the expert. You figure it out. You tell me what I need to do.”
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. That’s the nice thing. You’re paying for a service. You want it to be a positive thing, and I don’t want to have to worry about it. I want to be able to enjoy it and realize the big picture, I think. I said when we built the house, your differentiator was not only do you take these photos, but you have a plan of how to put that in place, your house.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Ben Larrabee: I was like, “That’s one last thing off my plate.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, one last thing.
Ben Larrabee: “You know versus some random artwork that I couldn’t care less about.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Ben Larrabee: I love my kids and my family. That’s what I want to see in my house, and if you can do that, hey, that’s excellent.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. “If you can have it installed in the wall where it’s not me trying to hang it with Carly telling me, ‘A little to the left,’ and you can save my marriage” …
Ben Larrabee: Do you know how taxing it is to ask an orthodontist to hang a picture on a wall when we see everything in millimeters and straight and right angles?
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Ben Larrabee: I’m like, “No, I don’t need a level. I got this.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Yeah, it’s just too much. So tell me, now that you had … The very first time you photographed your family, we did a really formal, just so beautiful … You have the most gorgeous wife and beautiful family. So now that that’s on the wall in your home, what was that like, having that on your wall? What is it seeing that every day, that you expected it would be, and then is there anything that’s been unexpected about that?
Ben Larrabee: I know you’re always biased to your own pictures and maybe harder on your own picture of your own self, that kind of stuff, but it just takes care of a whole wall. Every time I walk by it, I enjoy it. There’s a memory that’s always there, and it’s also a thing that you realize how quickly your family is growing, a reminder to smell the roses and trying to enjoy them right today and not rush it, because things get crazy and hectic. It’s also a time when a teenager gives you a rough morning, and then you’ve about had it. You look at that picture and be like, “It’s okay. That’s okay.”
Allison Tyler Jones: “I’m going to let him live another day.” Well, and especially your kids, we caught just before that huge growth spurt. They changed so much, and they’ve changed so much again in this last year. It’s crazy how much those boys have shot up, and yeah.
Ben Larrabee: Well, I think the biggest surprises have been how many people have walked through and saw that picture and just stopped and said, “Wow, I love this photo.” Everyone has their own reason for it, because when you walk in our front door, it’s right to the left on this one wall. The way they designed the house room right now, there’s not a lot of wall space or places to put pictures, but we put this one that we love, the more formal one, up. It gets so many comments. I didn’t expect anything like that.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, and now so you’re building a home. So we created these images, even though we knew you were building this house. So you were so smart to not wait. Can you imagine if you’d said, “Well, we’re building. Let’s just wait and not do the pictures until the house is done,” how different your kids looked than they do now-
Ben Larrabee: Oh, right. Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: … and how much more … They were littler. So to be able to enjoy those now … Now we have a plan going forward for the new house. We’re working with your interior designer to get your gallery wall sorted out and get that figured out. So I’m super excited about that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, okay. So what I would love is just to wrap up with thank you for doing this. The thing that’s really fun about having you as a client is I think you and I think similarly about business. We think similarly about our clients and how we do business and that sort of thing. So I think it’s easy to recognize somebody that is searching for excellence in their work. So in the world of orthodonture, what are some things that you’ve done in your business that you think can translate to the portrait industry that can help our listeners create a better client experience for their clients?
Ben Larrabee: I think we try and flip it. If you are the customer walking in, what are they seeing? What are they feeling? How do you make them feel? It’s the little things. They may not understand or translate the micromillimeters of little things we’re trying to do in creating their smile. I know they’re going to love it, and then I try and explain that to them in a consultation. But it’s like if you have someone in preschool, trying to teach an algebra. They’re not there yet. You have to build their knowledge of that by trying to give them a framework of what we’re going to work with and understand the principles of it. But the most important thing is how you make them feel across the board. There’s always going to be someone that’s doing things cheaper, better sale, better coupon, you name it, that kind of stuff. You need to be able to explain the difference in yourself, in your service, and the questions they may have. Be ready for that. Keep it simple.
Allison Tyler Jones: How are you explaining that? So if you have a mom saying, “Well, I got this thing in the val pack, this dentist down the street only going to charge” … I don’t know. I don’t what super-cheap braces would be right now, but what do you say to that?
Ben Larrabee: We always try and say what our standards are, what we’re going to achieve for them, and I don’t really go down the road of the rest of it, but just try and educate them of all the details that go into our game plan. For some, it doesn’t matter. It is what it is, and that’s okay. I say, “Our goal is I want everyone to be happy and find what works best for them.” We do that from offering them different options for their care, because braces isn’t for everybody. Invisalign isn’t for everybody. Whatever works for them. But I think just the educational component and doing it in a positive way of what we plan on doing here … I can’t speak for others, but this is what’s going to happen with us, and just build upon that. Like I said, at the end of it, when that mom or dad walks out, I want them to say that maybe it is a big gap. Maybe it isn’t a big gap, whatever. But whenever I do this for my child, that’s who I want taking care of my kid.
Allison Tyler Jones: Totally, and the thing I think that really shines about you is that you’re not cocky, but you have a lot of confidence in what you do. I’m sure there are other orthodontists that may struggle with that, like, “Oh my gosh. All of my patients are coming in, and they’ve got these coupons. Everybody else is doing it cheaper. All these regular general dentists are just throwing Invisalign, and so nobody’s wanting to do actual ortho,” or whatever. I know for us, it’s similar. Somebody might say, “Well, I just want the digital files. Why wouldn’t you just let me do that?” It’s like, “Okay.” For you, I imagine if I worked for you, if I was doing the consultations, I would be like, “So these are your teeth. This is your kid’s smile.”
Ben Larrabee: Rest of your life.
Allison Tyler Jones: “They’re going to be wearing this for the rest of their life. This is your face.” It’s like going for the discount coupon on your Lasix. It’s your freaking eyeballs, and you want a deal?
Ben Larrabee: Yep. That’s true.
Allison Tyler Jones: “Okay. Let’s think about this for just a minute,” and realize that as an orthodontist, the value you bring is that that kid that comes in and is hiding his mouth and has been made fun of because he looks like a vampire, in a year or two or whatever, can walk out and just smile and talk and not-
Ben Larrabee: Yeah, that’s the best. That’s why I say it’s like I can’t think of any other things I would rather do. Every day is a good day when we could do stuff that helps people.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, no, I love it. So I think you embody a lot of the things that we strive to do in our own business and that I strive to teach other photographers, is just to step into that expertise and know that what you do has value. Not everybody is going to value the way that you do it, but there will be those who do. I feel like my best clients see that effort and appreciate it and want it and are willing to pay for it.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. That’s the thing, is a wise man once told me, “You don’t want to treat everybody.”
Allison Tyler Jones: No. Well, you can’t. It’s not even possible.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. But I think that people in your profession, I would just say to find out what makes them happy in their profession, of what their niche is or what they want to excel at. Usually, whatever they enjoy the most of photography is what they’re going to dive into and excel the best at. So I knew for me, orthodontics versus root canals, this is what I love the most. So when you have that component and you keep educating, get better and better on it, the same thing in your profession, I’m sure. Those who are passionate about what they do will often excel the most in it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Were we having that conversation where you were like, “Okay,” because I was telling you that my son’s in dental school, and you’re like, “All right. Does he … relationships, where we have”-
Ben Larrabee: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So let’s have that, because I think that is so relevant. Let’s finish up with that. So I was asking you. I said, “My son’s in dental school. Do you think he should do ortho? Do you think he should do endo? Which way do you think you should go?” You didn’t say anything about how much school or any of that. You had a really good way to make that decision. I think it’s directly applicable to photography.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. Well, it’s based on a principle of if you can find something that you love to do, you never work a day in your life, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, sort of.
Ben Larrabee: So if someone has the personality that they are a fixer, like to fix the problem, then get out and no bedside manner, that’s okay. Everyone has their own manner.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Ben Larrabee: There’s different characteristics that work with each specialty.
Allison Tyler Jones: So that’s like an ER doctor. Getting it out, you’re not-
Ben Larrabee: Exactly. You know that kid who doesn’t study for a test, who goes in and gets 100% on it and always guesses the right answer, didn’t even know how … I don’t know. I had a friend of mine, I would say one of the smartest kids that I’ve met. We were in third grade. They didn’t teach us the division symbol yet, but they gave us a test on division. He figured out what that division symbol meant and got them all right. Okay?
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh.
Ben Larrabee: He would always figure out the answer for these tests and get things right. I go, “He’s an ER doctor.” That is exactly what he does. Problems come at him. He solves it. He’s not much of a conversationalist, and that’s him. But he’s a genius on the problem-solving end.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, diagnostician. Just get in, get out.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah, absolute, versus the one who builds or likes the relationships as much of it. If you love relationships, endodontics, root canals are not going to be the … because you see them one time. They don’t want to see you after that, and bam, bam, done.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, and so if you’re an orthodontist and you don’t love relationships, you are going to have a very sad life.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. Not sad, but definitely not as fulfilling for that person, because I would say I get to see a child from 12 to 2 years and see so much changes in them, and it’s a relationship with them.
Allison Tyler Jones: And the moms.
Ben Larrabee: And the family. I have large families. I’ll know families now for 15, 17 years. It’s starting into this… I’m starting to see the seven-year-old kids and more patients and that kind of thing … I’m seeing patients come apply for jobs in our office.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, yeah.
Ben Larrabee: So yeah, it is definitely one of long-term relationship and conversation.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. So that makes me think translating that to photography is family and kid portrait photography, that is the orthodonture. It’s the relationship. Well, if you want a sustainable business, you want to build it that way. But there are plenty of people that need to have relationships that are working like ER docs or endodontists that are just get in, get out quick, but really should be thinking of longer-term and not realizing that that could be a possibility.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. It’s obviously what you like to do, too. Someone who’s a general dentist a lot of times likes to do all the things. They can’t decide what they like best, versus someone who fixates on one thing and wants to do just that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Ben Larrabee: So find something that interests you and then a component, something that works with your personality and your wiring.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, and how you want to live your life.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. Some people want to own their practice, and some people just want to punch in and punch out. That’s okay. But the sooner you figure that out for someone …
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. No, that’s great. That’s awesome. Well, I know that you’re super busy. I appreciate you taking the time today. I think there’s so many good nuggets in there. We appreciate you as our clients, of course, and taking the time to share your business advice with our listeners. Do you have anything that you want to add as we leave, any pearls of wisdom you want to drop on your way out?
Ben Larrabee: No. There’s one thing I thought about, though, that I never thought of regarding your pictures, and I thought I would tell you about it, because you say dads get involved with photography. Oftentimes dads get involved with, “What’s the bill coming at me?”
Allison Tyler Jones: 100%.
Ben Larrabee: “There’s another bill on my desk,” that kind of thing. I think that when I have a conversation with Mom and Dad, sometimes it’s split families, and so I know that Dad’s going to get a bill. I try and involve him out of the gate. I look at it from his perspective and hers and “Hey, do you want to add Dad, want to FaceTime him and see if he can come in and talk to me here, too, if he has questions?”, that kind of stuff, because I look at it if I was in his shoes. Then maybe something for you guys, too. Sometimes you look at things as a stick in the mud or a negative in the experience. Try and flip that and get that person onboard and see their side of the story. You know what I mean?
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, for sure, because who likes surprises, especially when it comes to … Yes, I think most men that are good dads want their kids to have a nice smile. They don’t want their kids to have a jacked-up grill for the rest of their life. But if the wife is just going and she gets all the information and then he gets blindsided by what he … He’s talking to his buddies at work, and it’s like, “Dude, my dentist just threw Invisalign on my kid. It was totally fine. You don’t need to pay six grand or whatever,” whatever it is for the treatment. Then they don’t have any context for that unless they’re looped in. When they’re looped in, then I find that I love working with the dads. I think it’s great.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. Never judge. The common thing is to go to stereotypes, to judge, and you’d be surprised how many times you get proven wrong with that. So I’ve always taken pride in never trying to judge on that part of it, and also-
Allison Tyler Jones: Say more about that. What do you mean, not judging?
Ben Larrabee: Well, I remember this instructor telling us one time how this farmer walked in with dirty clothes and dirty boots and his daughter. From an orthodontic perspective, you’re thinking, “Did he even bring her the dentist the past seven, ten years? Did she have orthodontic care?” He just said one of the fees for it, and the gentleman just paid cash right there in full, ready to go, wanted to do what was right for his kid, whereas the doctor had told me that immediately, his treatment coordinators had a bit of a judgment, like, “Oh, doc,” kind of thing. I always remember that story and always make note that we always never jump to those conclusions and never know. Hey, maybe Grandma and Grandpa step in to be heroes here. You never know.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Ben Larrabee: It’s going to be a great story. We’ve had tons of those that have turned into positive things.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, yeah, and I always say if you operate from the assumption that everybody that walks through your door wants what you have and can afford it, then how do you talk to them? You’re so excited, right? If everybody you thought had a Brink’s truck out in the parking lot and just was waiting for the guys with the dollies to bring the money in, you would be like, “Well, we could do this,” and you’re like talking from this happy perspective, rather than this, “Okay, I’m going to make this as quick as possible, because this guy’s shoes are dirty, and this is not going to go anywhere.”
Ben Larrabee: Yeah, and then bringing upon your picture, the one thing I want to tell you about upon that was … I thought of this the other day, is as you get older and start looking at things, start being more retrospective and maybe a little wiser, you look at things differently. I never thought when I took pictures with my sons that someday when I wasn’t around, they’d look at that picture and what it might say about their dad. Maybe it’s how I stood with them. Maybe it’s the expression I gave. But it’s something for them long-term, how they’re going to look at that. I’ve got several pictures you’ve taken of the boys and I and one of Farrah and I. Then I think that when I’m long gone, they’ll be good memories of the good and the bad of their dad. You can see it in the face.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. No, I appreciate you saying that, because my dad is gone. I wish that I had a picture of just he and I together, because when I was six, I told my mom, “Well, I’m going to marry him when I grow up.” She’s like, “Well, he’s already married. I married him.” I’m like, “Well, I don’t know what you’re going to do, but I’m marrying Dad when I grow up. That’s it.” I wish I had that picture of me hanging off of his neck before he left for work in the morning or whatever. So I love that you see that. I love that you see that. I’m glad we could create that for you.
Ben Larrabee: Yeah. So thanks for everything you do. I appreciate your craft.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, well, we appreciate you, and you’re the best. Thank you for doing this.
Ben Larrabee: Anytime.
Allison Tyler Jones: The entire reason I started this podcast is because I am convinced I have the best job in the world. Being a portrait photographer fulfills so many needs. It’s just meaningful. I get to be with amazing clients and their darling kids, and it’s just so rewarding in so many ways. I know that there are so many talented, amazing photographers out there that could be making a better living for their family if they just tweaked a few things in their business. So if you know somebody who’s struggling or that you know this podcast could help, please share it with them. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, hit that little Share link and send it to them, because we want everybody to do better.
Allison Tyler Jones: If you have a minute and you can give us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening to your podcast, it makes a huge difference in getting us exposure so that more and more photographers can learn how to have better businesses. So share and review if you have a minute. I’d so appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.
