Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, many workshops, and behind the scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love, through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the rework.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. I know that all of us at one time or another have cursed the S-word in our business, S as in snake, S as in software, and we all know that we’re paying probably collectively millions of dollars a month for various software packages, and some of them make our life better, and some of them we kind of wonder whether they do or not. Well, today’s episode is all about selling and streamlining your business using software. And our guests today are two portrait photographers, Maureen Sullivan and Michele Cardamone. Maureen is a software consultant and a portrait photographer, and she helps photographers get their business streamlined using CRM software and sales software. And Michele Cardamone is a wedding and portrait photographer, and she is one of Maureen’s clients. And so I wanted to have the conversation about software and what is current, what are people using, what’s working well and how that might best help you in your own business.
Allison Tyler Jones: So many of you are solopreneurs and you’re wearing all the hats. How are we going to get everything done without hiring 50 people? And more importantly, how can you create the revenue that your business needs to be profitable and sustainable? And a lot of that can be achieved using the correct software. So if you’re new to the business, you, of course, want to set up your business right, with the right software. If you’ve been around for a while, I think we’re all always wondering whether we’re using the right software or not. Many of us have jumped around CRM software or sales software, and we’re just sometimes not sure whether we’re doing it right.
Allison Tyler Jones: So we are going to be talking specifically about ProSelect sales software and some options for CRM software that Maureen has found very helpful with different portrait photographers that she has worked with. I think you’ll find this conversation enlightening. We have tons of links in the show notes to all the things that we’re talking about, and I know it is going to inspire you to maybe make some changes in your business to how you sell and how you organize and get things streamlined. So let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So today on The ReWork, we are going to dig into sales with two hot chicks that I met at Imaging in 2023 when I was teaching the pre-con class, Ms. Maureen Sullivan and Michele Cardamone. They are both photographers, and I want them to tell you a little bit about themselves, where they’re from, and then we’ll talk about what we’re going to do. So Maureen, why don’t you start, tell us who you are and what you do.
Maureen Sullivan: Okay. I live in Massachusetts, a photographer based there. I am a portrait and wedding photographer, but I also do a lot of, I guess, software consulting, like a trainer. So I train, definitely ProSelect. I help a lot of photographers get up and running on the system, get all their information in there, and then train them on how to run a sales session through ProSelect. I do all of that via Zoom like we are here. And I also teach CRM, so I help photographers just figure out their systems, what they have in place and what they need to implement to streamline their business and manage their clients, and hopefully bring in some big sales.
Allison Tyler Jones: Awesome. I love that. Okay, Ms. Michele?
Michele Cardamone: I am a photographer based in Aspen, Colorado, and I specialize in portraits, mostly family and children. I used to shoot weddings. I don’t anymore, like so many of us. And-
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s because you value your sanity.
Michele Cardamone: Yeah. And I’m doing more and more sales thanks to your podcast. And Maureen and I have been working together for, God, like eight years now, and I feel like the emphasis on sales has really grown and my bottom line has gone up. But yeah, I’m a portrait photographer.
Allison Tyler Jones: Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you both being here. And so I think we get a ton of questions about CRM too, so I’m going to ask you about that too, Maureen, but let’s talk about ProSelect. Let’s talk about selling. So in your mind, ProSelect, tell us about that software as though I’m a five-year-old and know nothing.
Maureen Sullivan: ProSelect, in a nutshell. Typically, what I tell people is it can do everything from image management. So you’re culling, some editing. It’s definitely your sales presentation tool. So everything from presenting slideshows, room views, different products that you offer. And then all the way on the back end when you write up your sale, a lot of people don’t understand that in ProSelect there’s a high-res production piece. So once you create your product, you get your cropping down and everything for your client, you can go to high-res production and actually prepare it. ProSelect has the ability to create every single product for you, sized, ready to go to your vendor, and it packages it in one folder. It does not FTP to your lab. So once you create the product, you would then need to go to something like ROS or whatever FTP service you use to get it to the lab.
Maureen Sullivan: It’s also not a database. So although you can write up an order, a beautiful invoice in ProSelect with the images on it. It’s not a database. So you can’t get your financials and run reports. So that’s where your CRM would come in. But you can export your order and have your CRM pick it up and import it in to save you double entry. So it is, it’s just a bit of overlap with Lightroom and some other systems out there. But ProSelect, for sales, is just where it’s at. You use it in your business. I mean, to be able to give a potential non-visual client the visual-
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Maureen Sullivan: To them, to see what they’re going to get. I mean, the sales I’ve made with ProSelect, I mean, it’s just… Yeah, there’s nothing like it. I love it.
Allison Tyler Jones: I feel like the ProSelect is the moneymaker really, because we purchased it back in, I think I started in 2005, I bought it in 2006. And for a couple years, only used it as the slideshow for culling, putting it in the yes, maybe no. I would do that and then run it as a slideshow and then didn’t even use it for any of the other modules until just slowly I would add modules onto it, adding on the invoicing, which is huge because I was handwriting invoices. And then adding on… The room views are amazing. And then adding on that high-res production has been a game changer. Saves so much time for our-
Maureen Sullivan: Oh, so much. So much. And even if you outsource to a retoucher, you can have the images come back in and pull them in and still use high-res production to create the product. I always tell people when I’m working with them, I’m like, please don’t go to Photoshop after and recreate these templates. ProSelect can do it for you. It’s such a huge time saver. I absolutely love it. I think it’s a great piece of software. And I can say consistently in the clients that I’ve worked with, the photographers over the years, I have such positive feedback on the software where photographers come back, they’re like, my God, I doubled my sales, I tripled my sales. I quadrupled my sales. I can’t believe I didn’t start this sooner. So the money you leave on the table, not using a system like ProSelect, is significant in you business.
Allison Tyler Jones: Significant, yeah, for sure. Which brings us to Michele. So Michele, had you been using ProSelect before you started working with Maureen?
Michele Cardamone: I had gone to a trade show and met Ron and bought the program, the software.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s Ron Nichols.
Michele Cardamone: It was such a robust program. I’m like, I need someone to help me. And I got online and saw Maureen’s name and randomly she was living in my hometown. I’m like, okay, I’ve got to reach out to her.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s meant to be.
Michele Cardamone: It was so meant to be because that was so long ago. And it is such a complex and robust program that I feel like you can do it on your own if you do all the tutorials and you commit yourself to it. But having Maureen just has really, really launched me into understanding it well enough to use it. And it was a game changer. And I never heard of IPS, I didn’t know about in-person sales, I just thought I’m a photographer and I’ll shoot. And I wasn’t thinking about getting art up on the walls. And why would you spend all that money, effort, energy into creating these beautiful images when nobody’s ever going to look at them again? And the question I was always asked was about those digital files, and I never really knew how to address that. But I feel like with ProSelect and just guiding them toward putting these portraits on their walls, it allowed me to bypass that digital file question and accomplish my goals of them buying art.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, and I think you bring up a really important point, which is, it’s funny, those of us who’ve been in the industry a little bit longer, we always laughed at when that IPS quote-unquote “thing” came along, like in-person sales, it’s like, well, how else do you do it? But it really was revolutionary because so many new photographers that came into the industry were just posting a gallery, if that. They could download putting them on a thumb driver, whatever. They were just delivering those digital images.
Allison Tyler Jones: And like you say, it’s so much talent, work, effort, and are we really delivering those images to their highest and best use, to use a real estate term. Is that the best use of that imagery for that family that you’re doing it for? And we know everybody wants to post things online, and that’s great. We love that too. But what’s in your home and what are you walking past every day? And if there’s no way to help them visualize how that would look in their home, then they just ask for what everybody wants and what everybody thinks they want, which is a bunch of files, because they want everything.
Michele Cardamone: And that’s so true. And I feel like I am also the only photographer in this valley I live in that is doing in-person sales. It makes me stand apart. No other photographers are doing it, because I don’t think they’re listening to podcasts and they haven’t reached out to a consultant, and it’s just not in their repertoire.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. That’s a really good point to set yourself apart. So Maureen, you work with a lot of different photographers. What’s the most common roadblock or why people haven’t done it before? They just don’t know?
Maureen Sullivan: You mean implement ProSelect?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, implement either in-person sales or selling with software that allows you to visualize.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah, I think probably something you find in photographers that you’re working with, too, it’s a confidence issue. I think people worry about pricing and delivering that price. So often when I’m working with people and we’re talking about delivering the price, I hear photographers say, they go to say the price. So it’s going to be this much, almost with an apology in their voice. And it’s like, people come to us and book us as photographers for a reason. They want our services, they want the pictures.
Maureen Sullivan: So we just need to give them them that visual. We need to show them what’s possible. They want the product, they want it. We don’t show them what to do. And it’s so funny when you mentioned how you did the yes, maybe, no pile on the slideshow. I did that for years too. And I always joke that when I did that process with a client, and I’d go through and sort the images, it could take anywhere from 20 minutes to two hours depending on the number of images I was showing them-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes-
Maureen Sullivan: With the client. So when I would finish that, I’d then look at them and say, so what did you want to do with those? What were you thinking? And-
Allison Tyler Jones: They’re like-
Maureen Sullivan: All of them, right? I don’t know. Can I get the digital?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, exactly. They’re like, I need a Xanax for the last two hours that I’ve just been through weeding through those. And really that was our job.
Maureen Sullivan: Or they would say to me, they would say to me, so I feel really good about what we got done today. Could we schedule another call, another meeting to… And I’m like, oh my God, I’ve just exhausted them to the point where they couldn’t actually pull the trigger on an order. And then I’m booking another session, which costs me more money, because now it’s more time. So I think going back to the trouble with photographers… I think it’s just fear of pricing and asking your clients to pay a certain amount. So yeah, I think confidence and fear maybe is part of that. And then the learning curve, you had mentioned that ProSelect is a bit to take on. True. And I think, for me, when I look at a piece of software and the learning curve seems high, it’s because it’s robust. It means it’s going to do a lot for me. It’s valuable. And it might mean that it takes a two or three-phase process to implement it, but it’s going to be worth it in the end. It’s worth the time and the investment.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. And I just didn’t feel like ProSelect was intimidating to me at all. I felt like just from a UI/UX, user interface, user experience standpoint, I felt like it was easy to just load the images in and quickly be able to get them up and have somebody view them versus trying to be clicking around in Lightroom or some other viewing software. I felt like it was very easy, very intuitive to start with. And then you can, of course, get into the more complicated aspects of it. But I want to just jump back really quick to that idea that we just talked about, because I’m all about mindset and how you flip your mind around to things. But that fear of pricing, that fear of putting a price out there, I think the reason sometimes that photographers are afraid of talking price is because they don’t have some kind of a foundational infrastructure built in to justify the price, basically.
Allison Tyler Jones: And when you have a picture of the client’s home on a screen, and they can see that that image above their 15-foot sectional needs to be 72 inches wide to hold that wall and that when you size it down to 60 or 50, it looks like a postage stamp and it looks stupid. You don’t have to sell. It’s just obvious, it needs to be 72 inches to be on this wall, or we need to find another wall. If you want it to be smaller, it needs to be on another wall. And that, you don’t have to sell, really, you’re just helping them really design their home in a way.
Maureen Sullivan: And if you do it in the right order in ProSelect, typically the flow that I always start with with my clients, it’s leading with that slideshow and with the right music and the right timing, and you get it just right. At the end of that slideshow, right on the heels of that slideshow, that’s when the emotion’s at its highest, right, in your sales session. People buy based on emotion. So right after that slideshow, if you’ve done the prep work upfront and you invest maybe 30 minutes, so even less to prep for that sales session and you have room views already mocked up. At that point, I’m going to show them what I want to get at that point, I’m going to mock-up a room. So right on the heels of that slideshow, I go straight to room views. I don’t go anywhere else. I go right to the rooms.
Maureen Sullivan: And the reaction, and you feed off your client’s reaction, so you bring a wall up first. And it’s such an easy transition at the heels of the slideshow, when they say, oh my gosh, these are amazing. You got such great shots. I can’t believe this. I’m so glad you like them, here, I put a couple of ideas together of what I thought you might like to do with the images and you go straight to rooms. And the reaction, I love the reaction from clients when they’re like, oh yeah, oh, I didn’t even think of doing, oh, I love that. I didn’t even think of doing that.
Maureen Sullivan: And then, I’m glad you like that. Here’s another one. And you go to another room and then another, then you go to your images and start sorting, because at that point, you’ve planted the product in their head. So when you sort the images, they can’t help but visualize the image as product now. So now instead of just saying, oh, I don’t love my expression in that one, or that one looks great, so-and-so’s cute, they’re going to say, that one right there would look great in that group, we should put it in our living room, or that one… So they’re applying product. ProSelect is the ideal tool to get that done for you. Does such a great job.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. No, I love that. So Michele, do you have any experiences? Once you started using the software, did things change for you in any profound way?
Michele Cardamone: My sales definitely went up, and for me, it did take a while to gain that confidence to use it. And Maureen’s help definitely pushed me faster than if I had been doing it alone. But yeah, I’m just thinking in particular, I had a client, and so many of my clients have second homes here. They have these large homes, they have art, they’ve got their Picassos on the walls, and sometimes I feel like I have an easier sale because of the affluence of my clients, and sometimes I feel like it’s tougher, because they feel like they should have a different kind of art on their walls and it’s convincing them. And so with this one client, it was a process. We didn’t close the deal right away, but Maureen was on Zoom and she came into my studio and we had the photos of her walls and we just did it together. And we kept on rearranging the walls, and we got to something that she really loved.
Michele Cardamone: I did three different photo shoots with her. She has three kids and I did each one of their families. And so, there’s so many different images. And we started with one thing, it was down in her basement and we ended up with this wall in her kitchen visible to everyone that went into her home. And she bought, oh God, it was like a $20,000 sale. It was huge. And it was because of ProSelect, could never have done that without ProSelect, and it was Maureen and I working together as a team and bouncing ideas off of each other with a client sitting next to me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. And I think that it does allow you to… Well, there’s a couple parts to this. One is that the in-person sale component of this requires preparation. It’s not something that you can just even… I mean, you can. You can just dump a bunch of images in and then make the client do your job and sort through them, which we just talked about. That’s going to be exhausting. And then they want to have another appointment. They will not be able to decide, or you can cull it and curate that, edit tightly and then figure out where you want those images to go and then present that to them. But that’s going to take… It takes me about 45 minutes to do something like that for a typical client ahead of time. But it’s always time so well spent because that’s a maybe 30-minute view and order appointment rather than a two and a half hour, because they just see like, okay, that’s it.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. So let’s… Like you said, here’s where I think the family pictures should go. This is where I think the picture of the kids should go. And then yes, we love it. Okay, let’s make sure that we have the image that you prefer the most. And so then it becomes more of a collaboration. So we’ve already decided, in our sales process, that’s already decided in the consultation. So then when I get to the point where I’m making up that ProSelect catalog and populating those walls, I’m just fulfilling what we already talked about before we ever shot the session. I’m not putting in a bunch of things that we didn’t talk about because that would be how I feel about it. That would be wrong. I want to do just what we talked about in that consultation.
Michele Cardamone: You’re just reminding me about the importance of that consultation. And I feel like when Maureen and I first started working together, I didn’t set her up for success with selling in ProSelect because I didn’t set it up in advance with my clients. And that’s something that’s changed over the years that I’m getting better and better at my consultations. I’m not totally there yet, but I have that confidence and I have that professionalism. And I feel like if I can set it up, like what you were just saying, because you… That’s what I get from listening to your podcast and going to your class is the importance of that consultation. But if I do that properly, then when Maureen or I go to do the IPS, we’re set up for success already.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and I use ProSelect before the session now. So what we do is we’ll get the client’s room views before the consultation. And so let’s say that I have a client that has two teenage girls, then I will use their walls in ProSelect. I will pull over portraits that we’ve done of other families that have two teenage girls, and we’ll put them on the walls of their home in certain spots that I think would look good, based on their interior and what it looks like. And then they can see, what do those sizes look like? We can quote those prices, and they don’t have any fear coming into a sales session that they’re going to be oversold.
Allison Tyler Jones: It just allows them to completely visualize and get comfortable with the investment ahead of time. And if they’re not comfortable with it, in that consultation, then they can decide not to do it before we even shoot it. So I haven’t spent all that time shooting it, and they haven’t spent all that time falling in love with the images, and then we’re not friends because everybody got mad. So we use ProSelect even… We use it in so many ways. We use it in consultations, we use it to create our client galleries. We use it to create our own wall galleries for our samples and our studio, and we just use it all the time.
Maureen Sullivan: I love that. I love the pre-sale like that. I’ve had other photographers say they do that where they’ll take the templates of their wall group collections, so it’s just the black squares. Because they’ll do client’s rooms and say, okay, this is what would fit well on the wall. So it’s an empty template, but then they’re shooting to sell that, like they’ve already pre-sold, like, oh, I love this side, that fits well. And so depending on the format of what they’re putting on the wall, now they can shoot accordingly, if needed, to fill it perfectly. I love that idea.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, it’s the same exact process. Yeah. The thing that I love about ProSelect for that reason is that it becomes so much more collaborative rather than, hi, I’m trying to sell you something. It’s like, you’re more in the design world than you are in the photographer trying to sell a bunch of images world.
Maureen Sullivan: And people struggle sometimes because I don’t know if listeners will know this, but you can bring your client rooms in, like you were saying, right? So you can bring the client, and sometimes the struggle I see is photographers will say, well, how do you get the rooms? How do you get… ProSelect does have a really great app that goes with the program called SendMyRooms, making it incredibly simple and easy for your clients to get those rooms to you. And so it’s interesting, I’ve had people push back, too, on getting the rooms, because to your point, they’re thinking, oh, they’re going to sell me. They’re going to sell me. I don’t want to go through the trouble. But if you do it the right way and you get the rooms, people are so impressed, your clients are impressed. They’re like, wow, this is so cool.
Maureen Sullivan: I can’t believe you can do this. They love seeing what you can actually do on the wall. I have literally had a sales session with a photographer I was training, it wasn’t my sale. I was doing a sales session for her at her studio, where the client had sent in, this couple sent in probably nine rooms, and they’re sitting there in the sales session and the dad says, oh, we wanted one above the mantle. I forgot to take the mantle picture. And he’s like, do you mind if I run home and take that real quick? Literally left the sales session-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Maureen Sullivan: Went and took that wall so we could come back and size it just, right? Because bottom line, they’re making an investment and if they want to spend the money on the wall art, let’s make sure it’s the exact right size and presentation.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, and that’s how you overcome the kickback, because I have never had anybody kick back on sending their room views thinking that I’m going to sell. If people are kicking back on that, it’s because it is being presented not confidently and it’s being presented in an apologetic… Well… That kind of way if you’re presenting it as look… Because how I present is we get the room view so that you can see exactly what the images look like on your wall. Of course, we’re not decorating your entire house out of a single portrait session, because that would be ridiculous. But it gives us options because we’ve had situations where people have come in and said, oh, shoot, I should have sent you that wall. So send us all the walls possible, and then we have options, and then we can decide from there. But that’s confident, right? That’s like, of course you would want to send me every single wall so we could figure out which would be the best one to workup.
Maureen Sullivan: Well, it’s important to get them thinking about products in the beginning, which I think you do brilliantly. I told you before, I always send people to your website when I’m talking to you about ProSelect because I’m like, I love your opening where it’s the image, image is product, image, image is product. I think it’s great. And on your contact page, the question that you ask of where will your portraits live? It’s not how do you want to receive your digital files?
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Maureen Sullivan: Where are these going to live? On your walls, in an album? So it gets them thinking from the very beginning. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that they’re going to get product and of course, you’ll get product. That’s why you’re hiring me as a photographer, because that’s what we’re doing here. We’re creating beautiful images for you.
Allison Tyler Jones: So I love it. We’re all just… We’re preaching to the choir here. But I think the thing that ProSelect does so well is it supports that business model that if you are convinced as a photographer that your clients need to have finished product on the walls of their home or custom design albums, then this software is the software that allows you to show that vision to your clients, paint that vision, and fulfill that vision in the best way possible.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah, absolutely.
Allison Tyler Jones: Do you sometimes feel like it’s difficult to get on the same page with your client? You email them a price list, you email them a contract, you send them information, and it seems like nobody’s reading anything anymore. Well, I found that even doing an in-person consultation with my clients, that there are sometimes things still falling through the cracks. So I’ve developed what I call my consultation game plan booklet. It allows me to get on the same page with my clients so that nothing is left to chance. After 13 years of revising our internal ATJ consultation form, which by the way is available for free at dotherework.com, I realized that I needed something more for my consultations. I wanted my clients to leave the consultation with more than just a pretty brochure, more than just a priceless that had no context. What I needed was a single printed piece that would leave nothing to chance and achieve the following goals.
Allison Tyler Jones: I wanted to educate my clients about the price ranges of my products. I wanted to help my clients understand what I would and wouldn’t be shooting for them during their portrait session, and also ensure that they felt confident about selecting clothing for their session. So this consultation game plan booklet is kind of like part brochure, part getting ready guide, part running out the door, last minute checklist and part consultation form that the client gets to take home with them, and most importantly, share with their family, in-laws and their spouse or partner. It’s all-in-one, a single booklet, that the client takes with them at the end of their consultation. So I’ve been using this booklet in my business for the last five years, and we’ve revised it many times, and this is the first time that we are offering it to our ReWork community to use in their own portrait studios.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so this booklet is available online in layered PSD files so that you can lay your own images, logo, everything branded into this booklet to use in your studio. It also gives you access to our online mini-course, which includes a video lesson with me on how I use the game plan booklet in my consultations and an actual video recording of me with an actual client in an actual client consultation, using the game plan booklet and how it’s used during that time. So go to dotherework.com/gameplan and get this mini-course and this consultation game plan booklet to use in your studio. It will change your consultations forever.
Allison Tyler Jones: So do you feel like there are other software that you get asked about that maybe don’t work as well? Or what are your thoughts about, you get asked about Fundy or any of the other… Because this is not this-
Maureen Sullivan: No.
Allison Tyler Jones: We’ll just say right now, this podcast is not sponsored by anybody. This is just a bunch of photographers talking about what we use and what works for us.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, I think in my experience working with software companies within the photo industry over the last 20 years, you definitely hear what works for one photographer doesn’t work for the other. So I have definitely heard people coming from Fundy or some other solutions that are out there. There’s been some for the iPad, there’s been-
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Maureen Sullivan: Swift Galleries, there are some competitors out there, certainly for ProSelect. And again, I’ve had people come to me from Fundy and say, it’s great for albums, but I don’t like the presentation piece. They wanted something like ProSelect, and I suspect Fundy has heard people come from ProSelect saying something… But hands down, in my experience, knowing what the other software does in Swift Galleries is decent too. But I don’t think any of them are as robust as ProSelect. So it really, when I am talking to a photographer, I try and get a really good understanding of what their needs are and figure out the best solution for them. ProSelect is by far my favorite, though. I don’t think the other programs can touch everything ProSelect can do,
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Yeah.
Maureen Sullivan: From the room views, the high-res production, even on the front end, it has the plugin with Lightroom. So depending on how you shoot with ProSelect, you can import JPEGs, TIFFs, and PSDs. So it doesn’t work with RAW, but you can use Lightroom, you can use Capture One, Bridge, whatever you’re using for your culling. Or you can go direct ProSelect if you shoot JPEG and RAW on your camera, and you can use ProSelect for culling and do that as well. So it does everything from the very beginning all the way through to high-res production and prepping for the lab, and then the flexibility of the rooms. The fact that you can edit on the walls, you can have a wall group, but you can break it apart, resize things, try things with frames, mats, mix and match. It’s just a really flexible program.
Maureen Sullivan: And what’s wonderful is you can work with absolutely any vendor, any vendor you want with ProSelect. You are not locked into any one vendor. It’s completely open. Even with the slideshows, it’s pretty open. I always refer to it as like a RAW editor. You can bring the slideshows, it’ll be as creative as you take it, you can put video clips in. You can create custom title slides. It just depends what you want to do. And I think that’s where the overwhelm comes in. When something’s completely wide open, you’re like, whoa, I can do anything. So what do I do?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, it’s like Photoshop. It’s just so much that you’re like, oh my gosh. But I do think the thing that I really have loved about ProSelect, because I purchased it when I was a solopreneur and didn’t have any employees. And many people listening to this are still at that… Maybe have an assistant or something like that. And so it’s like, how many pieces of software do you want to pay for? How many pieces of software do you want to learn? And how many pieces of software are you willing to try to figure out how to transition from one to another? Whereas this one kind of does all the things, and you can grow with it a little bit every year and just learn the different modules, if you want to learn it yourself or have somebody like you that can come in and fast track you, which I mean, I wish I’d had a Maureen when I was starting because I probably would’ve gone much further, much faster.
Allison Tyler Jones: But I think, just like you say, it does… I feel like it’s simple. I don’t feel like it’s super overwhelming, but I never really… Because I looked, I knew that they had the high-res production. I’m like, okay, I’m not ready for that. I want to get to, let me get a slideshow, so I can show them. I feel like ProSelect is… I will cull the images. It is so fast.
Maureen Sullivan: It is fast for culling, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s the way fastest. So if you’re one of those people that in Lightroom is putting stars or colors on images, you need to stop immediately. And it’s like, yes, no, it’s binary. It’s not like, well, I loved his face where he was slightly lifting his eyebrow and this next one is actually virtually identical, but his eyebrow is slightly less lifted. Like, no, you need to speed that process along. Michele, you were laughing. What were you laughing at?
Michele Cardamone: Oh, I didn’t think you saw that. I just thought, I’m still in Lightroom first, and then I export to ProSelect, and then with the client, I go through them in ProSelect. So I’m still the work in progress here, but my workflow is so much more efficient than it ever used to be. I mean, it just tightens everything up. I have Maureen, and I’m so grateful for her, but I’m a one-man show and I do everything on my own. So the more efficient I am, the more productive I am, and the more successful I am.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Because you need to be… When you think about, each photographer kind of needs to look at what are my specific talents best used for? So if you’re a solopreneur, I feel like my highest and best use for Alison Tyler Jones is I need to be shooting and I need to be with my clients. It’s that. And then maybe marketing. It’s like those are the three things that I need to be doing. I know how to retouch, I’ve done it, but that’s not my highest and best use. I have a brilliant retoucher now, and Stacey’s awesome, and so she can do that for me. So then start farming out the things that you aren’t great at and stay in your lane for the things that you’re… What your core competencies are. So you need to outsource, Michele, come on.
Michele Cardamone: I know, I’m getting that. And I am outsourcing more and more and for the processing, because it is really hard doing it all on your own,
Allison Tyler Jones: Michele. Overwhelming. There’s just so many.
Michele Cardamone: It’s over… I mean, as a photographer, I feel like there are so many different software programs that we use, at least five for all the various things that we need to do from the beginning of the process to the end of the process. But these software programs are really important. So instead of having a studio full of people helping me, it’s all these different software programs that are allowing me to do whatever it takes to run my photography studio,
Allison Tyler Jones: Which is awesome that we live in an era that that can happen, but you can get sucked down that rabbit hole. And those are five pieces of software before you ever get to bookkeeping and actually the business before you get to QuickBooks-
Michele Cardamone: That’s a whole ‘nother beast.
Allison Tyler Jones: And hit your accountant. Yeah. Yes. So let’s just divert over for a second, Maureen, on the CRM, I have no idea what you’re going to answer to this, but what are you helping with CRM. And like CRM, what does that mean? Let’s call that out for those you are going, what’s CRM?
Maureen Sullivan: So business management software.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, customer retention management.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah. So I mean, it is your business. I mean, it’s your client base, your lead pool, all of that, which is your business, it’s your clients. So typically when I’m working with people, I’ll try and get a feel for what they have in place just to get a good overview, a big picture of what’s going on in their business and how can we streamline that. As you’re talking about all the different software, Michele, like the five different pieces and things like that. It’s taking a look at that and saying, okay, well how many of those do you really need? What are we doing here? What are the goals? And let’s take a look at that. So just a complete analysis of what they have in place and what their goals are. And so, depending on what they have in place, if it’s a ProSelect or if they’re doing any online galleries, like a ShootProof or Pixieset or some other piece of software.
Maureen Sullivan: And then maybe they have Lightroom and there’s always overlap in some of these systems, but they all kind of have their place in what they do well, which means you kind of do need more of them. But I’ll take a look at that… And for, so a CRM, business management piece software, I’ll take a look at what they have in place, but can we streamline any of it where the systems talk to each other to avoid that double entry and things like that. Also, what are their must-haves in a piece of software for managing their business? Do they need it to work with QuickBooks for their CPA? Do they need an online scheduler? Are they looking for certain credit card processors that they want to stick with? Do they want, for their workflow, do they want automated emails? Do they want automated text messaging?
Maureen Sullivan: What are the different things they need in place? And if people don’t know, if they’re like, I don’t know what I need in that, then I’ll talk it through with them and say, here’s some things to think about and consider when you’re implementing a CRM to manage your business. And then I pick what I think would be the best fit. And typically I’ll tell people, maybe take two or three for a test drive. All of the systems out there offer trial periods. So I’ll tell them, take them for a test drive, see which one feels good. And certainly, it’s finding that balance between what’s going to cover what their needs are, but what will they be comfortable using? Because I’ve helped people, I’ve been doing the CRM piece with photographers over 20 years, I’ve been teaching that. And so I’ve set people up. If I set them up on a system that doesn’t feel comfortable for them, it’s useless if they’re not going to use it.
Allison Tyler Jones: They won’t use it.
Maureen Sullivan: So it’s finding that balance to implement a piece that will work for them.
Allison Tyler Jones: And it’s even worse to jump around on the CRM. I feel like.
Maureen Sullivan: Right, Michele?
Michele Cardamone: I’m making a transition right now and it’s brutal.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s painful.
Michele Cardamone: Going from… Shifting-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Michele Cardamone: But I was going to say, I would love for someone to do a study because I think photographers, our minds are always going, there’s so much to think about and so much to wrap our heads around, we’re fighting against this dimension all days, right? I mean, how can this not help us? We’re staying on our game. I just think that we don’t have to worry about Alzheimer’s.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Maureen Sullivan: We have less friends.
Allison Tyler Jones: We just… No, because we have such profound ADD, but the neurons never stop firing. Okay-
Michele Cardamone: Mind’s always going.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Okay. So you’re transitioning from what to what?
Michele Cardamone: I’m transitioning from ShootQ to Pixifi. So for all that management stuff.
Allison Tyler Jones: CRM, okay.
Maureen Sullivan: There’s a lot out there. Michele and I went through that. And typically, like the CRMs, most people probably know them, but there’s Pixifi, Tave, 17hats, Dubsado, ShootQ, Honeybook, Sprout, Studio Ninja. There are so many different ones. I have my main go-tos for me, like you said, I’m not associated with any of these companies. I have some of my favorites, because over the years… I used to, actually, a friend of mine owned PhotoOne software. Back in the day, it was StudioPlus software and PhotoOne, and my friend Lisa, and Mark owned it prior to her. So for 10 years, I worked with Lisa at PhotoOne, and I traveled around the country setting photographers up and training them on PhotoOne software. It was a great program, really robust. StudioPlus actually bought the company. So now it’s StudioPlus. Anyway, so I like a robust CRM because I know what it can do. I want good financial reports. I want good tracking, workflow, the questionnaires, the online scheduler. Things that are important, my go… Am I allowed to name go-tos?
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh yeah, absolutely. Because again, we’re not sponsored by anybody. Yeah.
Maureen Sullivan: I’m a big fan of 17hats, Pixifi and depending on… And Tave is really good too. I just haven’t set people up on that. That’s a really robust one as well. But my go-tos are Pixifi and 17hats and Studio Ninja’s fantastic too. Oh, and I didn’t mention StudioCloud. Another really robust one that actually integrates with ProSelect.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s what we use.
Maureen Sullivan: StudioCloud. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good one.
Allison Tyler Jones: Or Stratus.
Maureen Sullivan: Oh, no, no. So you’re Stratus.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, StudioCloud. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right.
Maureen Sullivan: That’s Studio Plus,
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Maureen Sullivan: So Studio Ninja is really nice because it’s simple. Speaking of UI, that’s a beautiful piece of software and it’s simple, but it means it doesn’t have as many features as the others, in my opinion. But a great program, and a lot of them work with ProSelect, which is fantastic. But Michele and I chose Pixifi for her. And so we’re in the process of getting-
Allison Tyler Jones: I know, and it’s hard. I think it’s hard because, for me, we started with the Successware, then we did a little StudioPlus. Then my husband came into the business and he’s Mr. PC guy. So he went straight down into StudioPlus Stratus. And I fought him all the way because you have to have VR software to make that run. Because it’s not native to Mac, and I’m a Mac native. I don’t do PC. Anyway, but he basically runs that software. When somebody says, well, did you look in Stratus to see if it was there? I’m like, you know I don’t get into Stratus. That’s your job. That’s not my job. He runs that. So I think because it’s not pretty, right, the interface on that is not… And that’s why I hated about Successware too, because it was very DOS-based. But Tave is pretty, I haven’t seen some of these others that you’ve talked about. But I think that visual, that UI, that interface has to be pretty for photographers. But there’s nothing that has all the things you need. It’s always going to be some combination of-
Maureen Sullivan: A hundred percent.
Allison Tyler Jones: QuickBooks. Because your accountant is not going to go into Tave. They’re not. They’re going to still make you do QuickBooks so that you don’t end up in jail. I mean, they will. They just won’t.
Maureen Sullivan: And no one wants to end up in jail, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: No. And you can’t take good pictures from inside a jail cell. So we just need to stay out of jail.
Maureen Sullivan: But what’s pretty about the CRMs is when you run the financial reports. Profit. That’s really pretty. And that’s what I tell people, having a system, they do make you money because they save you time, and time is money. But when you’re doing your sales in ProSelect, and you’re selling this great product, and the confidence comes with running cost of goods, which I do with a lot of photographers, too, is the product line, running your costs and figuring out your profit and all of that. So that will give you the confidence to say the number to your client, because you know you have to charge that much. But you get those numbers into your CRM and then you pull those reports and you’re like, all right, it’s working.
Michele Cardamone: It just keeps track of everything for you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Michele Cardamone: Because otherwise, I mean, everything would be all over the place. And it gets all the dates.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well-
Michele Cardamone: And aspects of your business.
Allison Tyler Jones: Your database, your client list, that’s the gold of your business. And having those clients coming back again and again, and being able to keep in contact with them, I think that’s probably the most overlooked asset in any business. Because most businesses, small business especially, are just constantly chasing after new clients and not taking care of their existing.
Maureen Sullivan: And that’s something, over the years, I used to… I remember saying something similar at the trainings I would do for photo and on location, it’s backing up your data, making sure it’s backed up because your business is… Your management system with all your clients and leads, that is your business. God forbid something happened at the studio, things burned down, whatever. Your insurance will cover that, you can get all that back. But your clients, that’s all, like you said, right there.
Michele Cardamone: That’s the gold.
Maureen Sullivan: And when you sell your business, people buy… It’s because of that list. They want that. So it really is. So having something in place, and I’ve talked to photographers over the years where they’ll say, well, I’m using Excel spreadsheets, and then they’re using different calendar, everything’s disconnected, Google Calendar spreadsheets, this and that. And I’m like, you can bring it all together in a management system and have it all right there, big picture view. So that’s typically how I land with helping people with CRMs. If I see things disconnected, I’m like, please, let me help you. Please, let’s get something set to make your life easier.
Michele Cardamone: And the value, also, it’s in the client database, but it’s also in your systems. It’s all in these systems that you use that you could… It takes a long time to build that. And I think that’s something that we all know is important, and we’ve invested a lot of time doing it. And therefore, I think our businesses are more valuable.
Allison Tyler Jones: For sure. And especially if you’re a solopreneur, the easier you can make that workflow and develop those processes, the easier it is that when you bring somebody in, you can immediately see where you need the help. It’s like, okay, I’m spending all of my time returning calls, chasing people down, trying to get them scheduled. I need a client coordinator. Or I’m spending all my time retouching. I need a retoucher. You can see that. And then if you have those processes in place, it just makes them easy to train people or for people to train other people.
Allison Tyler Jones: We have two full-time employees, and then my husband and I, so there’s four of us in the business. But really, we probably do the work of 12 people when you look at all the different things. But it’s because of our processes and the software that we’re able to do what we do, and we still do use Excel. There’s certain things that you just want to, you need to think something through, so you need to throw it into a spreadsheet. Not me, that’s my husband’s job, but-
Maureen Sullivan: Bless you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Stay in your lane. Stay in your lane.
Maureen Sullivan: Oh, I do love a good spreadsheet. Don’t get me wrong. But when I hear someone writing up invoices, I’ve had people say, I do them in Photoshop. I’m like, what? Are they doom in Word or-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.
Maureen Sullivan: That type of thing where I’m like, no, no, no. There is an easier way, for sure, to get that done.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, no, I think this’ll be really helpful because I know there are going to be people that are like, oh yeah, I’m doing my invoices in Pages on Mac or Numbers or whatever. Oh, I was going to say one thing, going back to ProSelect, too, being able to export those CSV files and the XML files on your invoice, that can go directly into your CRM software. So every product, everything goes in, and then you have reports and you know, okay, we sold so many 8x10s last year. We sold so many 16x24s. That is vital information for you to have to know what is selling, what’s not, what’s paying your bills and what’s not.
Maureen Sullivan: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think it’s just such valuable information to have.
Michele Cardamone: Maureen and I have changed so much over the years based on that, what’s selling, what’s not selling, assessing it, and then changing those PDFs, changing the pricing, changing what we’re offering, that information is so important.
Maureen Sullivan: It is. And talking with, again, other photographers where I might be working with someone, if they’re new to ProSelect or something, or they’re thinking about it for their business, so we’re chatting about it and they’ll say, well, I don’t need it yet. I’m not there yet. I hear that often from people, and I’m like, well, wait a minute, because what’s going to happen? And I’ve seen it over and over, which is so fun and exciting. They start getting clients and the momentum starts to pick up and it starts to roll, and it just starts going before they know it, they’re like, oh my gosh, now I’m so busy. I’m like slammed and I can’t keep up. And I’m like, before you think you’re busy and you think you don’t need it, that’s the ideal time to implement something. Because let me tell you, in my experience, when the momentum picks up, man, it goes. I’ve heard it over and over and from photographers that they’re like, I’m just getting busier and busier, so let’s get you set up so you’re ready to manage that busyness before you hit it. And I-
Allison Tyler Jones: A hundred percent.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, that’s like saying, we don’t have kids yet, so let’s not… Let’s just stay in a tent. We don’t need to build a house. Let’s just stay in a tent and it’ll be fine. And then you start having kids, it’s like, no, no, you need to build the house for what you… Obviously, you’re not going to use every single part of that software, maybe in the beginning. But having that foundation in place, even down to, I think of when I first started, down to how you’re organizing your files on a server or a backup hard drive, when we started before I had a server, just having that organization and that structure in place, we know I can find any file anytime, anywhere, because that structure is in place. And if you knew the inside of my brain and knew how disorganized that can tend to be, that’s a pretty amazing thing.
Allison Tyler Jones: But it’s because back in the day, I read Kevin Kubota’s book about digital work camp, digital bootcamp or whatever, about how to set up your files. And that was just an amazing thing. So I think these pieces of software can do the same thing. Having a good CRM. And Maureen, if you can send me, maybe just send me an email with the list of those, and we’ll link to all of those recommendations to show notes, so people can just click on them and be able to see. But we’ll have your information in the show notes so that people can get ahold of you if they want to talk to somebody about setting up ProSelect for their business or their CRM, because I think that would just be so helpful to have somebody that can help you. It just fast tracks your success to have education in these areas. I think it’s wonderful.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah, a hundred percent. Because then you get the return faster. And I’ve worked with photographers that are very established, successful photographers, and they’re like, just get me there faster. I need to start using it now. And then I have other people that are new and they say, hey, can you guide me through this and help me figure out products, figure out what I want to sell, what vendors I want to work with. And so, it’s helpful depending on whatever situation you’re in. It’s not just new photographers.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, because I think sometimes you get stuck in your ways, too, when you’ve been in the business longer. And then you’re bored or you need a refresh, and so shake it up and learn something new. I think that’s awesome.
Michele Cardamone: And just to cross ideas off of, just somebody that you can just share and discuss. Because if you’re just on your own and it’s just you second guess yourself, so it’s just really nice to have another opinion.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Okay. Well, I appreciate both of you here today. Maureen, do you have any… If somebody was, let’s just… I’m going to throw a couple of scenarios at you. Somebody just new, starting out, getting their business started, maybe they’ve been shooting friends and family, but they want to make a go of it. What would you suggest for them starting out? Where would they start? CRM, ProSelect? Like what? Both?
Maureen Sullivan: Oh, boy. I would probably do ProSelect at that point. ProSelect has their basic and their pro version. So their basic, they can lease it. So as a new photographer, you can get into ProSelect for as low as, I think $29 a month for their basic, and it’s a lease. So there’s very little risk, and you can start getting the sales, getting the bigger sales. So in serving your clients, and I think it’s really important to set the expectation from the beginning with your clients, where you’re selling products and they know what they’re going to pay, so they’re referring clients that are then going to expect that as well. And it’ll just roll in from there. And then CRMs, they’re pretty reasonable too. You can get into something like that. There are typically monthly plans as well for $25 a month and up, I think most of them run. But I think I would probably start ProSelect, because it’s probably the more exciting of the two to implement, and you’re going to be selling that product and bringing in more revenue for your business and then to the CRM from there.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and Ron and I, it’s so funny. Ron Nichols is the owner of ProSelect, and he and I’ve had a million conversations about it, because he’s a software guy and he loves to get down into the detail of like, okay, well this is this new cool thing we can do. You can put a frame on this, or you can put this in a room or whatever. And I’m like, okay, Ron, the message is that ProSelect makes you money because it allows your clients to visualize what it’s going to look like in their home, bottom line. So, if no other reason, if you don’t talk about any other sexy feature, that’s number one is that that’s the money maker. I feel like that is what makes money in my business is that piece of software. So I would have that, I would take that, you’d have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right after my camera, I have my camera in one, and then my MacBook. Those would be in… Maybe I’d need three hands and then loaded with ProSelect. So I love that. And then, okay, so then what do you see in a more established photographer that’s been around for a while that’s wanting you to fast track? What do you feel like, maybe just use a scenario that you’ve been through? Where do you think their unique problems come from? So they’re not starting out, they have a process and you’re coming in helping them refine that, or?
Maureen Sullivan: I would say probably the management of it. So sometimes with established photographers, they’re booking clients, they’re making money, but they feel scattered, they feel stretched thin. Maybe they’re like not… I feel a little lost in where everything is. So that might be a CRM, where I’m helping with that, or they’re looking for more advanced features in ProSelect, or if they’re implementing ProSelect, I can say consistently that even new photographers and established photographers, when you implement ProSelect, oftentimes because you’re putting your product line in there and you’re setting up your pricing, more often than not, we end up reevaluating the entire product line.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.
Maureen Sullivan: And that’s the whole thing because they’re like, well, wait a minute, if we’re going to go through the trouble here to put everything in, let’s make sure it’s exactly what we want to be selling.
Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.
Maureen Sullivan: Yeah. So that’s pretty consistent, new or established photographer. But I would say established photographers typically are streamlining their systems to make it flow smoothly where everything’s kind of working together and it’s taking away some of the burden of admin work or followup. We can automate some of that in the systems. I love with CRMs, you can have your contact form feed right into it and have it trigger the workflows, or you can go straight, which I’m a big fan of this, booking a consultation on the website straight away, the free 15-minute, 20-minute consult, which feeds into your CRM automatically, launching into that workflow of management, I would say it’s streamlining their workflow.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and you could automate those appointment reminders and all that. So that saves you so much time, especially if you’re the only one doing it. But I think what I want to kind of wrap up on is the idea of we’re at the beginning part of the year, and this is typically when people or business portrait photographers are a little bit slower in business. And this is a time where we’re, where we are reevaluating like, okay, what do we want to do this year and our goals and kind of house cleaning and that sort of thing. But I feel like the exercise of evaluating those things that software makes you do when you’re looking at all the things that you’re paying for every month and you think, okay, well if I want to do a new CRM or I want to do a new piece of selling software, just the exercise of going through that and putting that in, it’s so valuable to see, well, what am I really selling?
Allison Tyler Jones: Have I sold that in the last five years? Are people continually wanting that? And I really don’t want them to have it, because it’s some little tiny 5×10 that goes on a desk that has three images in it. That needs to be in the trash. Why are you even having that out there? Because that’s not the highest and best use of your work. But you don’t know that until you look at it because we’ve just been doing the same thing. And if you’re solo, you are run off your head, you’re wearing all the hats. And so I think that that process of evaluation is really good. And I really appreciate both of you being here to tell us how you’ve done that with yourselves, your own business, Michele, and then other photographers. Maureen, do you have anything that you want to leave us with? Tell us where people can find you. Michele, why don’t you tell us your website or your Instagram, where people can find you, and then Maureen, we’ll end with you.
Michele Cardamone: Okay, thank you. And I was going to say, just to follow up on what you were saying, it’s the workflow, like all the CRMs and those software programs, it’s that workflow that makes you so efficient. But anyway, so my website is my name, michelecardamonephotography.com. Michele is one L and Instagram, @michelecardamone.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. And we’ll link to it in the show notes.
Michele Cardamone: Thank you so much. That was just really fun and it was such a pleasure doing this.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. Thank you. I appreciate your time so much.
Maureen Sullivan: One quick thing on ProSelect, I just wanted to mention, as we were saying, the learning curve can be high on that. I just want to mention that although we’re saying that I can help people with it, they do have a lot of free resources available. They’ve got-
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.
Maureen Sullivan: Ron is fantastic over there, and Graham, who’s the head developer, they co-own it now. And free training videos on their website, they have an extensive library of videos. Their Facebook user group is phenomenal. They also have knowledge-based articles and reference manuals and their tech support system on their website.
Maureen Sullivan: And they do have some super exciting stuff coming. I’m sure I’m not supposed to mention any details of that, but I did get a sneak preview, and I think they were showing it even at Imaging. So it’s only getting better. It’s just the system and it will make you lots of money, which is so fun. So my website is Maureen Bridget, which I won’t spell it, but maureenbridget.com. My Instagram is, I’m so bad about that. It’s mostly personal, so I won’t bore anybody. I am on Instagram, but you know, probably don’t want to see too much personal stuff. So yeah, maureenbridget.com.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. And we’ll link to all of that in the show notes, including all the Facebook, ProSelect, all of that stuff. But thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and having that conversation today. I think that’s going to help a lot of people down a path where they can be more efficient with their business and bring their highest and best work to their best clients.
Maureen Sullivan: Awesome. Well, it was great. Thank you so much.
Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you for being here. Okay, have a good day.
Maureen Sullivan: You too.
Michele Cardamone: Bye.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram @do.the.rework.