Recorded: Welcome to the ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini workshops, and behind the scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the ReWork.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome to the ReWork. Today’s episode is all about branding and marketing, but also about mindset, confidence, and a whole slew of great book recommendations because my guest today is Dr. Stuart Frost of Frost Orthodontics here in Mesa, Arizona. He is known as the artist orthodontist. He’s known in our town as the very best of the best. He’s an author. He teaches orthodontists internationally all over the world how to get his beautiful results, and he’s also my friend. He did my braces. He’s done my children’s braces, and he’s also a client of Allison Tyler Jones Photography. I love this guy. He’s awesome, and he has so much wisdom.

Allison Tyler Jones: In addition to being the artist orthodontist, I think I could call him the Tony Robbins orthodontist because he’s just got so many good rationales behind what it is that he’s doing. He’s so intentional with his business. The thing that I think is so amazing about this conversation as you’ll see, he didn’t start out that way. He developed and cultivated a lot of these qualities and a lot of these abilities that has allowed him to create a profitable, sustainable business that is known as the best of the best in our town. So can’t wait for you to hear all of these totally applicable concepts that can apply to your portrait studio as well. Let’s do it. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Dr. Stuart Frost, I can’t even tell you how long this has been on my bucket list to have you on this podcast. Thank you for making the time.

Stuart Frost: Oh, are you kidding me? What a pleasure. When you mentioned it, I was like, “Of course, I want to do a podcast with you.”

Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. You need to have your own podcast. You know that, right?

Stuart Frost: That would be a blast.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s going to happen. I see that in your future.

Stuart Frost: Oh, I’d love it.

Allison Tyler Jones: I’ll help you. I’ll help you figure it out.

Stuart Frost: I love it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Anyway, Stuart, I’m so grateful that you’re here because you do so many things. Wow. First of all, the fact that I can smile with confidence when I had this weird crooked snaggle tooth for so many years. I don’t even know how old I was. I know I was in my 40s when you did my braces, but I love my teeth. Every morning, I’m just so grateful to you for giving me that.

Stuart Frost: Thank you.

Allison Tyler Jones: Also, I can always tell when a client comes in and they have a family of kids that I’ll have these gorgeous smiles, I always know when you did it.

Stuart Frost: Oh, thank you.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s signature. It’s amazing. So tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do. Give me the rundown.

Stuart Frost: Well, my name is Dr. Stuart Frost. I come from a family of dentists. My father was a dentist. My identical twin brother is a dentist or a root canal specialist. I started as a general dentist for five years, but always knew deep in my heart that there was something more for me. Part of that was that I wanted to specialize in the field of orthodontics. I liked the idea of straightening teeth versus grinding them down, and that was a passion of mine before I ever got to dental school. So I went to dental school. I worked with my dad for five years as a general dentist, and then took my family of three back to Rochester, New York for three years and did my orthodontics.

Allison Tyler Jones: Awesome.

Stuart Frost: It’s been awesome ever since. If you don’t mind if I share with them our encounter.

Allison Tyler Jones: You do it.

Stuart Frost: Can I just share it with everybody?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, of course.

Stuart Frost: We all, all of you, whether you’re a photographer, you’re doing portraits, whether you’re an assistant helping the photographer or if you’re in this field which I call artistry, there’s always somebody that makes a difference in your life. In 2000 I guess it was seven, is that when you first shot our family?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Stuart Frost: 2007, our family gets ready for a photo session. As every other family, I’m sure, my kids were not having it with a then wife, it wasn’t a great experience, but we showed up to meet Allison for our photo shoot. I reached my hand up to introduce myself to Allison and she says, “I know who you are.” I said, “How do you already know who I am?” I did know that she had shot my twin brother and his family, but she said, “You’re known as the artist orthodontist in our community.” I was so taken back. I didn’t know what to say. I was like, “The artist orthodontist, what does that mean?” I said, “How do you know that?” She said, “Because I’m taking photographs of all of your patients in the community and the patients of others in the community and yours are different.” 

Stuart Frost: I can’t tell you, and I’ve told you this, Allison, but I want to just share that one statement that that Allison that made to me about being the artist orthodontist changed my whole career. In fact, it changed my whole thought process because up until that point, I was just straightening teeth. Even though it was more, I knew it was more but I couldn’t articulate it, but your one comment changed my career. I started looking at every case that comes in as a piece of art, an artistic masterpiece. So for the past 14, 15 years, I’ve been creating beautiful what I call Frost smiles, and it even inspired me to write a book on the artistry of orthodontics.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that.

Stuart Frost: I think one thing I would just say and, again, acknowledge you, Allison, for having foresight and being able to tell somebody what you think. Words have meaning.

Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.

Stuart Frost: We are leaders in our community and we see a lot of people, but when you see something great, I always love it. Now, when I think about it, I acknowledge that greatness that I see in that person, and you did it in me and changed my career, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Appreciate it. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, my gosh. You’re so awesome. I had no idea that that would be that, but it was absolutely true. You would think, “Okay, well, how can you tell the difference between smiles or whatever?” but honestly, it was like … I don’t know what it is. I’m sure there’s technical terms that are involved here just there would be with photography, the lighting and that sort of thing, but your smiles are … They don’t look like Kardashians. They don’t look like overly toothy. They’re just the best version of that individual person and their individual teeth.

Stuart Frost: Couldn’t have said it better myself. Wow.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. So awesome. Okay. So we met and, yes, I’m not going to say which one of your kids, Spencer, that was naughty during that photo session, and we just photographed your family again just last week.

Stuart Frost: Yeah. It was a pleasure.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s grown. It’s been awesome. So when you made that change, that mind shift of, “Okay, wait a minute, I’m not just straightening teeth anymore, I am an artist,” what was the inkling that you had before that was ever said to you? You said, “I knew I was doing more than straightening teeth,” but you didn’t have words for it. What was that feeling you knew that you were doing something beyond that?

Stuart Frost: Yeah. So I think that, for me, early on in my career, I knew that I had thoughts and dreams, if you will, of becoming the best, and I don’t want this to come across wrong, but I wanted to be the best orthodontist in the world.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Stuart Frost: I wrote that down that when I first started, I wrote down questions and three questions. I said, “Where do I want to be in five years?” I wrote that down. “What kind of an orthodontist do I want to be?” I wrote that down, and then I wrote down, “What kind of orthodontics do I want to do?” I think this plays in so well with what we’re doing here on the podcast today for the listeners out there who are trying to say, “Where do I go from here? How do I be a better photographer? How do I brand better? How do I change what I’m doing and make things really meaningful? How do I attract people? How do I become magnetic and attract people to my studio or to my business?” I think those three questions really get you clear, and I wrote those things down. So I had already been on the track of achieving and high achieving and thought process of I’m going to do this and I worked. One of my favorite books is called Outliers.

Allison Tyler Jones: Malcolm Gladwell.

Stuart Frost: Malcolm. That was one of the very first books I read. I was so impressed because I wasn’t the smartest person in my dental class or my ortho class. I didn’t have the highest IQ, but, man, I put the 10,000 hours in.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, you did.

Stuart Frost: When you put the 10,000 hours in and you work at your craft, you have no place to be but up at the top. So for me, it was I knew what I wanted from a smile because I have mentors that I saw doing this, a mentor that’s, he’s now 82, that he showed me things that I’ve never seen before in smiles. So I knew what I wanted and then I just started going after that and creating. 

Stuart Frost: I tell people in the audience when I lecture, had the opportunity to lecture in 36 different countries, and I tell people in the audience, I tell my experience about becoming the artist orthodontist and sharing with them to try to inspire them because if you think about it, we’re all artists. You, Allison, are an amazing artist and you don’t just snap photographs. You’re an artist. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you.

Stuart Frost: Yes, and it comes out on every aspect of what you do. When we were sitting there with our family, we had a family of, I think it was 14 of us, and you were masterfully putting people in the right spot and eyeballing, and that’s artistry. I tell people in the audience that if I showed you some of my writing here you’d be like, “I can’t even tell what that is.”

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s how you know you’re a doctor because you can’t read your handwriting, right?

Stuart Frost: That’s exactly right, but I couldn’t pencil sketch, but, man, I am an artist of the smile and the face and the teeth. So that’s how I got it started.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So let me ask you a question about one of those points that you made when you said to yourself, “What kind of orthodontics do I want to do?” So what was your answer to that?

Stuart Frost: My answer was I wanted to do high quality orthodontics at higher fees.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.

Stuart Frost: I didn’t want to do high quantity orthodontics at lower fees.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. So you weren’t really interested in volume and just bringing people through. So by definition, by charging more, you are going to have less clients.

Stuart Frost: That’s correct and that’s okay because what happens is is if you think you’re just going to go and just line yourself up over the next 52 weekends with as many people as you can, you’re going to be overwhelmed. You’re not going to be able to service them the right way. I think of it this way. So somebody said to me about 15 years ago in my practice, they said, it was one of my assistants and she said, “You really ought to charge what you’re worth.” I was dumbfounded.

Allison Tyler Jones: Novel concept.

Stuart Frost: Right?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Stuart Frost: I thought to myself, “Well, I know I’m worth a lot more than I’m charging,” and I just had this barrier to, “Well, why can’t I just charge what I’m worth?” Once you see yourself as the artist, as the expert, and by the way, let me say this, I do a lot of podcast listening and I do a lot of work still, and I listen to Joe Dispenza and a lot of people talking about the brain, and the brain cannot tell if you are lying to it or not. 

Stuart Frost: So I do I am statements all the time, and one of my I am statements is I am excellent, I am crushing life, I am the best orthodontist around, I’m getting better every day. So if you want to be that person that charges high quality, not as many people, you’re almost getting paid the same, maybe even more, you have to tell yourself, “I am worth that. I am the most amazing photographer in the valley or in the nation next to Allison.”

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, okay, but that brings up a good point because when you say … I’ve heard people say, “Well, charge what you’re worth, charge what you’re worth,” but if you don’t feel like you’re worth anything or that you feel like … because right now I’ve seen you. We did a huge commercial shoot together a few years back and we wanted to shoot your patients. We did this for this braces manufacturer. We had, I don’t even know, probably nine different models. So what Dr. Frost needed to do is some of these models were in treatment. They had braces on. Others were post-treatment and we needed to put braces on. So this guy literally had all the chairs lined up in his office and he’s taking braces off of people, putting them on, and he is moving. I have no doubt in my mind you could run a factory. You could sit there and just go from mouth to mouth to mouth and be volume if you wanted to. You absolutely could do that.

Stuart Frost: Right. Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: Sometimes I think when something’s easy for us, we devalue it because we think, “Well, that’s easy. It only took me five minutes in Photoshop. It was quick to just fix her boobs,” or “It was quick to bond that guy up in braces,” but how quick it is or how easy it is for us is not what it’s worth. What it’s worth is that I can smile in a picture and in two people without first thinking, “Okay. I don’t want to smile too big because I don’t want to see my snaggle tooth.” I had that for 45 years before you fixed that for me. 

Stuart Frost: Wow. 

Allison Tyler Jones: So that’s the value. The value is that anybody comes at me with a camera, I mean, maybe I’m worried about my weight, but I’m not worried about my teeth. The teeth are feeling good.

Stuart Frost: Well, Allison, can I say something about this, too?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. 

Stuart Frost: This is so good. If you see yourself as the expert, if you see yourself as somebody who is magnetic, who has charisma, charisma is connecting and bringing warmth to the people you connect with, if you see yourself as that person, then automatically, you see yourself as excellent and you are excellent. So it goes into every part of what you do.

Stuart Frost: Then the other part of this is, and I think, I hope, I know you have, but I hope all of your listeners realize this that every time you take a photograph on somebody, anytime you do a photo shoot or you do something with a family, you change lives. Artistry changes lives. Allison, you know the piece that’s hanging up in my office and in my family room, it’s every day that I see that that I go, “That is amazing.” That lifts my heart every time I see that. So when you see yourself as that person that’s changing lives, gosh, now this changes a story of who you are as a photographer and what you’re doing. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Absolutely. I love that. When we first met and I first photographed your family, you were married to somebody else. You subsequently went through a divorce and found your gorgeous wife, who you guys are madly in love, and you’ve blended this family together, and blending is not easy at all. It’s hard. I have had a similar experience. So what I think just, this is not to toot my own horn, this is to drive home the point that you’re trying to make here is that your value, it’s super easy for you to do what you do now because you have 10,000 hours, you’ve achieved the level of mastery, so you could do my braces in a hot second, but that’s not what you’re charging for. You’re charging for the fact that I can smile without worrying about my snaggle tooth.

Allison Tyler Jones: What I’m charging for is not that … It’s easy for me to light your family, and you’re all great-looking. So it’s easy for me to get a good picture of you, but that’s not what the value. The value is is that when those teenagers that you’re blending in this family are complicated and everybody’s not necessarily getting along, and you’re trying to meld two cultures of two families that aren’t necessarily melding great at all times, that you can look at that image and go, “Okay. This is worth it. This is worth it, and I do love her and, actually, it’s going to be okay.” It’s almost like aspirational in a way, and that story’s different for every family. That really is the value of what we as portrait photographers do is we’re showing people at their best, not just how they look the best, but if we do it right, we’re creating an experience where they feel good together, and it’s a memory of a good time.

Stuart Frost: Wow. Okay. So you hit on something there that is something we try to do every day at our office. Give patients an amazing experience.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, tell me more.

Stuart Frost: Let’s face this. Let’s get around the open. Ever since COVID, everybody’s crazy.

Allison Tyler Jones: Straight up. Preach it. 

Stuart Frost: Everything is crazy.

Allison Tyler Jones: They’re broken in a dark place.

Stuart Frost: They come in to our offices or to our photo shoots and they are spewing and blaming you. It’s crazy out there, but what I keep teaching my team at my practice is that, “Listen, this is not about you. Don’t take that personally. This might be the only time and a year that this person might feel good because of what you’ve just done. You now given them an experience that when they walked through the door, they were hurting really bad. You made them laugh. You made them cry. You made them feel good. They’re going to walk out the door better than they walked in to your photo shoot.” I think, again, that’s what you’re saying. You’re creating an experience that when everybody leaves, they go, “Holy cow! We didn’t want to do that, but wow, that was fun, and Allison made it fun,” and you did, and you connected everybody. You see, I know I get off on these tangents, I apologize. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Do it. 

Stuart Frost: I’m such a, after being in practice for so long and doing this for the last 22 years, I’ve realized that, really, what we are is we’re leaders in our community. If you’re a portrait photographer to families, you’re a leader in your community. People are coming to you. I think it’s our job, if we want, to connect each other, connect the people together like you were saying, Allison, and that’s a huge responsibility. Then of course, if you’re using love and warmth and you’re connecting with them, you’re going to do nothing but grow a bigger business and everybody’s going to want to come to you because of that experience. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. So when I refer to you, and this is something we can even get into, if you want to, because people are always saying, “Well, how do you co-market?” or whatever, and I’m like, “It’s just relationships, basically.” So when somebody comes to me and they say, “Okay. I got to get braces for my kid. Who should I go to?” I’m like, “There is only one, and it’s dear for us, and I’ll just tell you right now, don’t even price shop because he’s going to be the most expensive. So don’t look at anybody else because then you’ll feel sad. So just know that you’re in for north of six, seven grand. Whatever it is, that’s what needs to happen, but I will tell you, your kid is going to have confidence. He will never take them off. Unfortunately, he will never take them off until they’re ready, which is kind of annoying. Even as much as you nag him,” personal experience, “Are you sure they’re not done yet?” “But he knows and they will just look amazing.” So I appreciate, too, and you have done the same for me. You’ll refer. I love it when men refer me because men aren’t afraid to talk money. So the men are like, “Look, just get the second mortgage, dude, and get the pictures because it’s going to be a fortune, but it’ll be great.”

Stuart Frost: I know. It’s so true. That’s so good.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Anyway, I don’t know where I was going with that, but I just-

Stuart Frost: It’s good. 

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re there. So one book where you really had a huge impact on me in many ways, but one book that you recommended is that Positive Intelligence.

Stuart Frost: Oh, boy.

Allison Tyler Jones: Is it Shirzad Chamine. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that right, but we’ll link it in the show notes. So tell me why you love that book and I’m going to tell you why I loved it.

Stuart Frost: Okay. So I had an orthodontist from Utah, two of them. They were friends. They came to my office to observe what I was doing all day. I invited them to dinner at my house that night. We’re sitting there and we got on the topic of books. Now, for me, I’ve never been a reader. I read one book in high school and-

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re too busy playing football. You’re too busy being a football star.

Stuart Frost: Yeah, exactly. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Dating cheerleaders.

Stuart Frost: Yeah, but I got ignited reading books when I went through my divorce. Well, before that, I was reading all the divorce books like Anatomy of Peace and all those things, Bonds That Make Us Free, but this guy said to me, “Hey, have you read Positive Intelligence?” I said, “No.” He pulls out his copy of his book, his own copy, had pencil line marks on it, and just gave it to me. So I think I probably read it within the week, but the thing that really caught my attention was that Shirzad talk about his own experience with life. He was having a different experience in his life than everybody else. He was miserable all the time. He was negative, but yet, he was still trying to crush his life. I think he was in higher education trying to figure out to be a psychologist or to be somebody that was a therapist. Shirzad, I hope I’m not going into too much detail. 

Allison Tyler Jones: No, I love it.

Stuart Frost: This is going to be really good. Shirzad got invited to be a part of a panel group at Stanford. They were in there and it was a type where you had to be very free and open with each other and you could share and they were going to grow. I think it was either a doctorate of some kind. Anyway, he’s in there and a few sessions in, one of the ladies raises her hands and says, “Shirzad, can I share my experience about you?” 

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, no. 

Stuart Frost: He said, “Well, yeah, go ahead.” She said, “Well, I don’t like you. You’re mean. You talk down to us, and I don’t appreciate it.” Then he’s dialoguing with the book and he is like, “Well, look at you. You’re a B. Of course, you’re going to say that about me.” Then somebody else raised their hand and says, “I agree with so and so,” and everybody in the room basically let him have it, and he kept saying, “Well, of course, you guys are 90% women,” or whatever he was saying, but it caused him to do some serious reflection of who he was and how he operates, and he basically went down a path to find out that we, not just him, we all do this. We operate out of two sides of our brain. One side of the brain is a positive part, and he calls that the Sage, and the other part of the brain is the negative, which he calls the Saboteur. 

Stuart Frost: So he basically learned that he was functioning out of the Saboteur, which means that the Saboteur is the judge, the person that judges other people, the person that’s always negative, the person that’s not doing anything to be helpful. The Sage is the creative part of our mind. Think about this for a second. Anytime when you’re creating something amazing, you’re engaged, your mind’s positive, you’re going, and that Sage is the positive side. So he went through this and then he decided to write the book on this, but the cool thing about this is he teaches groups of people. He teaches individuals on how to engage your mind to get out of the Saboteur and get into the positive Sage. He gives some exercises. There’s even a little part in the book where you can go online and take a quick test to see if you’re in the Sage or you’re in the Saboteur. After you read, this it’s so powerful because we all want to operate out of the Sage. Who doesn’t want to be creative and happy and kindhearted and thankful, and who doesn’t want to be that, but life comes at us pretty hard and we find ourselves getting into that Saboteur. In fact, in the book, he labels certain things that make up the Saboteur. One of them is the punisher. That is my Saboteur. When somebody does something that I don’t like, I start to punish and now it happens. It’s crazy. 

Allison Tyler Jones: They probably deserve it, Stuart.

Stuart Frost: They probably did. Isn’t that funny? 

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. 

Stuart Frost: My wife has read the book too. So when I do that, she- 

Allison Tyler Jones: She’s quick to call that out.

Stuart Frost: She goes, “What? What?” This is the way she does it, though. I love her to death. She doesn’t say, “Your Saboteur is coming out.” She said, “Which of the Saboteurs is coming out right now?” I’m like, “You knew it was the punisher. Why do you even ask?”This book has really just been amazing to me because I’ve thought about our thoughts and I’ve thought about how we operate on a daily basis, and a lot of these people that come to see us, they’re operating on the Saboteur, not the Sage. If we read this book, it’s great. It reminds me. I just listened to John Maxwell leadership podcast. By the way, I throw these out, these podcasts, because I have found that if we’re not building ourselves on a daily basis and filling our own cups up, people that rely on others to fill their cup is never going to be full. You have to do your own work. I listen to this podcast from John Maxwell and he is talking about thinking for a change. Basically, what he says is that the sum of all your thoughts is who you become, and it says, “Your thoughts,” this is really good, “Your thoughts determine who you are. Who you are determines who you’ll be.” Think about that for a second.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Say it again.

Stuart Frost: Your thoughts determine who you. Who you are determines who you will become. So if we’re functioning out of the Sage and we’re having positive thoughts, we’re thinking creatively, then that will be who we will become. If we’re functioning out of that Saboteur all the time and we’re functioning out of negative, the judge or the punisher or whatever other Saboteurs there are-

Allison Tyler Jones: Is there one called the scorekeeper because I could totally relate to that one?

Stuart Frost: Scorekeeper?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, scorekeeper. 

Stuart Frost: Scorekeeper. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Scorekeeper, the counter of the gold stars on the forehead and/or negative, the negative version of that. One thing that I remember from that book that was very impactful for me is there’s an exercise in there where he, because he talks a lot about how we talk to ourselves, how we sabotage ourselves. He said, “Get a picture of yourself at six years old,” and there is a slide that my dad took of me when I was probably much younger than that, maybe four or five. Whenever I look at that image, it just almost breaks my heart because I look so excited about life, and I’m so little, and I think, “Man!” So he says, “Have this picture of yourself and put it on your mirror where you’re getting ready in the morning and then think about how you would talk to a child of that age.” So when a four or a six-year-old makes a mistake, one of your children or a child that you know and love, how do you respond to that? How do you talk to them? You’re encouraging. You’re like, “It’s okay. Everybody makes mistakes. Here’s how we’re going to fix it,” or whatever. You’re not coming at them like, “You loser. You complete moron. You should have seen that coming,” and then just shredding them down to the studs. You just wouldn’t do that. You wouldn’t do that to your best friend. You wouldn’t do it to people that you really really know and love. Yet, every day, all day, we have that running in our head and you simply cannot be good for others if you can’t be good to yourself. It’s not possible. You could fake it for a little while, but not on a sustainable, true, core level. It’s really hard to be good to others if you can’t be good to yourself.

Stuart Frost: That’s huge. That statement right there, I think that goes back to what’s your I am statement. I am good enough. I am kind. If you don’t feel you are, then you better start saying those I am statements because what you’re talking about is huge.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and I think also what I’ve realized as I get older too, is we all suck and we’re all great. You know what I mean? Nobody’s perfect. As human beings, of course, we’re fallible. There are going to be times when you aren’t a great dad or you aren’t a great husband, and then there’s times when you totally show up and you totally shine. That’s everybody. That’s why the most fascinating characters in movies, in film, and books are never the painted completely black or completely white. It’s the complex, right? 

Stuart Frost: That’s right. 

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s harder to live with. It’s harder a broke or if I really was great because even as you’re saying those words like, “I am enough. I am great,” except when I’m not because there are times when I’m not. I think of COVID, this whole idea of Eleanor Roosevelt’s, “The worst thing to fear is fear itself,” or whatever. I remember thinking that, and then I also went around being chicken little with my head cut off and scaring people.

Stuart Frost: I know. You what’s so interesting? Our brains were built out of fear and force, and that’s how we were. We were cavemen. We had to defend ourselves and it was fight or flight all the time. Our brains are still like that. We have to train them like this Shirzad’s talking about, to be positive and be okay. I want to share something else with you real quick because you’re on this good and have to be perfect. We live in a society that we compare and ourselves to other people. Comparison is the thief of joy. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Thief of joy. 

Stuart Frost: So I was listening to a podcast and Glenn Beck was on this podcast, and he was talking about his fall from grace. Glenn was talking about how he had it all and he was killing it and he was doing so well in his career and his life and he became an alcoholic, and he fell from grace. He was talking about how he’s been studying in the Bible and really trying to get ahold of himself. He said to this guy Lewis Howes, who’s the podcaster, he said to him, “Hey, Lewis, what’s the most important scripture in the Bible?” I think Lewis Howes is a spiritual guy and he’s like, “Well, I really don’t know. Everybody in the podcast, what would you say is the most, I mean, I’ve got scriptures running through my mind,” but when Glen started to speak, he said, “The most important scripture in the Bible is when Moses went up to Sinai and he is getting the 10 commandments and God introduces himself to Moses, and how did God introduce himself to Moses and he said, ‘I am.’ He said, ‘I am.'” So this idea of a positive statement, even God uses that, “I am.”

Allison Tyler Jones: The other thing that’s really interesting to me along those same lines is there’s one other thing that I learned. I created this beautiful case. It should have been a surgical case for this 12-year-old boy. Every orthodontist he went to, they said, “Surgery. Wait till you’re 18.” He looked like a bulldog. He’s like this, an open bite. I told the mom I didn’t know what to do, but I said, “There’s one person on this earth. His name is Chris Chang out of Taiwan. He does.” So I told her to go look him up on YouTube, and I was really telling myself, “I’m going to look him up on YouTube. I was going to figure out how to do this.” 

Allison Tyler Jones: Long story short, we met back two weeks later. She said, “Let’s do it.” I said, “Oh, boy. Okay.” So I did it, and we used little anchors and screws to help pull the jaws back, and it looked a masterpiece. It’s beautiful. Changed this little boy’s life. Amazing. So I had the opportunity to go to Taiwan short thereafter. Before I went, this little boy came back in. He was now 14 or 15, but he had relapsed a little, his case, just a little bit. So I was at dinner with Dr. Chang. While he’s sucking his chicken feet, the marrow out of the chicken feet at a restaurant, I’m like, “Oh.” I got it on my iPhone, and I showed Dr. Chang. I said, “Hey, what can I do to get this back to perfect?” because it was perfect. You know what he said to me? He said, “Stuart, are you Christian?” I said, “Yeah.”He goes, “What did God say after he created the earth? When he separated the light and the darkness, what did he say?” I’m thinking back. 

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s good. 

Stuart Frost: I should know this. He said what, Allison? 

Allison Tyler Jones: Did he say, “It’s good”? 

Stuart Frost: He said it was good. He didn’t say it was perfect. God didn’t say what he just did was perfect. In fact, after he made man or woman and man, “It was good.” I think that we get so wrapped up in we have to be perfect, I’ve got to be … God doesn’t expect us to be perfect. He just wants us to be good just like he created the earth. That orthodontist taught me something that day that has stuck with me. We wake up every morning and think, “I got to be perfect today. I got to show my kids I’m perfect. I got to be perfect at the office.” You’re living in a really hard world, but you can look at it as, “I’m going to be perfect where I can be, but I’m going to be good everywhere else,” and you’re going to have such a great career, great life. I say that’s where joy comes from when you’re operating out of being good.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I think we all could say that we would like more really great qualified leads, but what happens when we get contacted by a potential new client? We sometimes have that pit in our stomach of, “Oh, it’s not a good time right now. I don’t want to call them. What if they ask me hard questions? Oh, I don’t really know that I have the words to say,” and we put it off until we call and they’ve already booked somebody else or maybe we don’t ever call or we’re just letting things fall through the crux. 

Allison Tyler Jones: So if you ever find yourself in this type of situation and you feel like, “I just don’t know the words to say,” or “I don’t know how to talk to these people,” or “Am I doing it wrong?” I have a solution for all three of those things. If you go to, we have three different free resources for you. One is our ultimate client consultation guide that is going to help you step-by-step walk that prospective client through your process how it is that you work. It has all the little speed bumps, so to speak, along the way to help you remember to say all the things that you need to say. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Next is our cheat sheet of frequently asked difficult questions that has an exhaustive list of all the hard questions that clients come up with that will help you get started on answering those confidently so that you don’t have that feeling in the pit of your stomach anymore, and you’re going to pick up that phone immediately. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Lastly is our sales sabotage evaluation tool, and that is going to help you to figure out where you are screwing it up because we all do at one time or another. So go to, and wherever you’re at in your business, if you’re needing to rework your message, if you’re needing to rework your answers, if you’re needing to rework your sales process, they are all right there on that very first page. They are free. They are resources to help you in your business. Go do it. Download them now and start doing better. Start booking those clients confidently and start selling them your gorgeous, beautiful work because they need it. 

Allison Tyler Jones: So when you think of just going back to the business, the business of orthodonture and your business in particular, that experience, so when I think of that client experience coming in, first of all, just hearing what you just said and all of that, there’s a very strong rationale behind everything that you do. I think that is something that’s really interesting and probably easily overlooked is that there’s nothing that’s happening by accident up in Frost Orthodontics. Everything is incredibly intentional from what color the walls are painted to what is hanging on the walls, to the cookies that are warming in the oven, to all the merch, to the little fun bar, the chairs, the massage chairs where kids can come in and play video games and all the things. 

Allison Tyler Jones: So I think that’s a really great example, too, that you didn’t start out with all of that stuff. You didn’t have all of that in the very, very beginning, but you’ve just added layer upon layer as time goes on. You invest in that in your business. That’s a cost center, I would imagine, a marketing rest. Yeah. So what are your thoughts about that? Am I right on there or-

Stuart Frost: Okay. You’re spot on. What I did when I started in the year 2000 is I said, “I’m going to have the best equipment. I wasn’t going to scrimp on my equipment,” because if you have the best tools and the best equipment, you are already setting yourself up for success. Best equipment, and I was going to follow good protocols, but everything else was added to from there. So it doesn’t have to be as intentional as big as you’re going to be, but you do have to be intentional right off the very beginning. I love that.

Stuart Frost: So one thing I was going to mention is that along the way, you have to take some courses or do some things that will help you with this whole process. One of those for me was branding. This is something that I really didn’t pay a lot attention to until seven years ago because here I was, I was creating these beautiful smiles and people kept coming to me and saying, “Oh, I want a Frost smile,” and, “Okay. If people are saying they want a Frost smile, why don’t I start branding Frost smile?” 

Stuart Frost: Then I became very intentional about that and went down this path of understanding that. Then a couple years later, I was thinking to myself, you know how these Facebook groups get going and they’ve got a lot of ladies and they’re going, “Okay. I need an orthodontist in the Mesa Gilbert area. Who do I go to?” I was so frustrated because I’d go on those and I’d see they’d say this one, this one, that one, and I would be thinking to myself, “Holy cow! Where’s my name? Where’s Frost Orthodontics?” I mean, I’m doing huge and beautiful quality work, and if I am, wouldn’t I want everybody to have it or a lot of people to have that beautiful end result? So I started down a path of taking some courses on culture, taking courses on being intentional of my practice in all areas, branding my name, social media, Instagram, Facebook, branding that to the Frost Smile, to what’s going on in my practice. I think that that part of branding has been huge. I’ll tell you a funny story. I was in New York City and I got in an elevator and was going up and these two 22, 23-year-old girls were staring at me and I’m like, “Yeah.” 

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. You’re feeling like, “Of course they would be because I’m so hot.” Typical man. 

Stuart Frost: Yeah, but I looked at them and I said, “How you doing?” They said, “Are you Dr. Frost?” I’m like, “Oh, my gosh!” I said, “I am, yeah. How did you know?” They go, “We follow you on Instagram.”

Allison Tyler Jones: That is so cute.

Stuart Frost: “You are Frost Smiles. You do amazing work.” I thought, “Holy cow!” It’s crazy. When you brand yourself and you’ll brand it across social media, it works.

Allison Tyler Jones: I think what you do, your Instagram feed is so intentional and so good. Your Instagram, is it @FrostOrtho or Frost Orthodontics?

Stuart Frost: So I have two. The practice one is @FrostSmiles. 

Allison Tyler Jones: @FrostSmiles, okay. 

Stuart Frost: @FrostSmiles. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So listeners, when you’re listening to this, if you’re driving, don’t do it while you’re driving, but after you park your car, go to Dr. Frost’s Instagram feed and look at how he brands that. It is so textbook great because he’s doing the before and after, and then there’s also a lot of things that you’re doing right now. I can tell the last year or so is you’re really heavy on the gum, the gummy smile, fixing that gummy smile.

Stuart Frost: Yes, yes. Yeah. We did a video shoot for a new bracket that came out a couple years ago, and I was talking to this videographer that came from LA. Ormco set them up, this company, and I go, “Well, you’re working in LA. What are you doing here?” He goes, “Well, I do side work.” He said, “People don’t understand how powerful social media is.” He said, “If people really understood it’s free business, free marketing, and if they understood how to set up their social media, they would grow and it’d be a huge success without even paying any money.” I said, “Well, how would you do that?” He said, “Well, what you set every story up or everything you do as here’s a problem, here’s a solution,” and he said, “that’s the key to marketing on your social media or doing your social media.” So many times you’ll see in ours, you’ll see the problem would be that if a patient has too much gum show when they smile, the solution would be to do gummy smile treatment where we take and we lift in a special process to lift all the teeth and gums up so you don’t see them, and we share that part of the problem is is that most orthodontists just recommend surgery for that, and I have a process where we do it nonsurgical. So it’s that idea of problem solution.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. I love that. Well, and I just think that, again, with photographers, it’s just the feeds tend to be just pretty pictures, pretty pictures, pretty pictures, but it’s like, what is the pretty picture going to do for the client?

Stuart Frost: Ooh, I love that, too. 

Allison Tyler Jones: What is the end result? The end result is that it’s hanging on their wall and they’re walking past it feeling good about their family every day. For you, you’re showing the before and the after. So to be able to compare those two things is really powerful. The other thing that I think is really awesome about you, and you and I have worked together on this a little bit, is having great images, and this is where photographers really can shine is that you have good images and you have really good images. One of the ways that we’ve been able to work together is that I was able to help you set up your studio to get your good treatment photos.

Stuart Frost: It’s amazing. I got to just say this real quick with you again because when I go lecture and show these cases in front of thousands of people, that is the comment they make, not just decides that cases are beautiful, but your photography work is amazing, and I think of you every time.

Allison Tyler Jones: Wow. I love that. So the reason I bring that up is not to say that I’m great, it’s to say that when people will ask me, especially newer photographers that are newer in their career, they’re trying to get established, they’re like, “Well, how do I go work with an orthodontist? How do I get referrals or whatever?” So what they’re wanting to do is go bug some professional who’s busy and doesn’t have time to talk to them and ask for a favor, basically. You and I don’t have a formal working arrangement. We did a little bit of that in the very first. I had cards for you that you put in bags, and we never had anything come out of that, but what I realized is that if I can help you set something up, you’re going to think about me all the time. Then every time one of your employees knocks the F stop to the wrong setting and you’re texting me going, “What is going wrong with this picture?” and it’s half gray or whatever. So I can tell you, “We can troubleshoot that for you.” So that’s a way that I can use my talent and my knowledge to help you. Then you’ve always been great to talk very kindly about us, and we’ve had just great, usually, anybody that’s in the Northeast Mesa area, we’ll say, “How did you hear about us?” and they’ll say, “Well, we know the Frosts,” or whatever. So we just appreciate that so much.

Stuart Frost: Awesome. Thank you. 

Allison Tyler Jones: I think just helping each other and having a relationship with somebody, that’s one way that you can “co-market” even though there’s not necessarily a formal-

Stuart Frost: It’s really good.

Allison Tyler Jones: You do have very formal relationships, say with general dentists. So there’s a whole pipeline, which I don’t understand, but isn’t there some whole referral pipeline that needs to happen in your life, in your world?

Stuart Frost: It’s interesting. There is. You see, for orthodontists, many times, the dentist doesn’t send the patient for a consultation, and sometimes they do, and if they do, they send it to who their friend is. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, whoever they golf with.

Stuart Frost: Yeah, and they don’t necessarily have this referral pattern that’s set. You try to have relationships with all of them, but in the industry, they say that you should be about 50% referral from dentists and 50% from other family members or social media. Ours is 82% word of mouth from other clients.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, yeah. Oh. 

Stuart Frost: Crazy. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Crazy. Okay. 

Stuart Frost: Right? 

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. This is my number one. It’s not a pet peeve. It’s just my number one like, “Hmm,” is that when we’re running this online class or I’m talking to a group of photographers, everybody is so focused on, “Okay. So what’s the marketing? How do we do the marketing? How do we do the marketing? How do we do the marketing?” and I’m like, “Okay. If you don’t have a good process, if your process and your pricing and all of that is not dialed, the base, your marketing, it’s just going to make it fail faster.” 

Stuart Frost: That’s right. 

Allison Tyler Jones: I don’t know if you’ve read this book called Anything You Want. It’s by Derek Sivers. You could read it in an hour and a half. It’s called Anything You Want by Derek S-I-V as in Victor, E-R-S, Derek Sivers. He started and sold this business called CD Baby. They were basically the forerunner to iTunes. He developed that software of helping share music, but making sure the artist got paid and that sort of thing. So he’s very cool, and I just like anything that he does. Anytime you see that name, listen to it. So he talks about that the best marketing is that you just blow people’s mind and then they go tell everybody. They do your marketing for you. 

Stuart Frost: That’s it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Because when you talk to anybody in the world, what’s the best marketing there is, it’s always word of mouth. Okay, but, sure, okay. We know word of mouth, but what else? It’s like, no, what are you doing to make the word of mouth better and better and better and better and better?

Stuart Frost: That’s it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right? So you do the first kid, you do the oldest kid, you make their teeth look amazingly great, and then they got four more kids or however many. If you aren’t doing all of those kids, you did something wrong.

Stuart Frost: That’s right. It’s not that hard. Is it? It’s not that hard. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Apparently, it is very hard. I don’t know. I don’t think it’s that hard, but I think we tend to look for, because maybe we’re reading business books that are geared around the Walmarts of the world or how huge product brands are marketing. It’s a discount. It’s a deal. When I see deals on braces, I always think of you because I’m like, “So you’re going to for 250 off, you’re going to let some yocal jack with your kid’s teeth?” What about LASIK? Let’s talk about that, 250 off for LASIK. You’re going to cut my eyeball and I’m going to get a deal. I’m going to Valpak coupon for LASIK? Are you kidding me? No. I don’t want to deal on anybody that’s going to be making what I look like on the daily be different. 

Stuart Frost: It’s so true. 

Allison Tyler Jones: I want to know where I can go to make sure that it’s perfection.

Stuart Frost: Yeah. You hear about those people that go down to Mexico to have procedures done? They die or they have permanent scars. So it’s so true. So we spend our marketing efforts, the majority of them are all around patients and bringing other patients in through their word of mouth. Google reviews is a good way to do that, obviously, and that’s where our marketing is.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s spent there. Okay. So what are you doing for that? See, I’m being like my listeners, but tell me about the marketing, more about the marketing.

Stuart Frost: Well, so first, number one is we talked about it briefly, is the experience they have when you’re with them. That’s number one. That old quote that nobody really cares about what you know, but how they felt when everyone left, that’s everything. That’s number one. We could even take it a step further. It’s the phone call. When they call, who’s answering the phone? Are they picking the phone up? Are they letting it go to voicemail? Yes. That’s letting your phone go to voicemail. People want now. If they get an inkling, “Oh, I’m going to Allison Tyler Jones. I’m going to call her up. What? She’s not even in,” and you leave a message and she calls back the next day, they’re not quite as hot.

Allison Tyler Jones: They’re not as excited about it. Yeah.

Stuart Frost: Starting with the phone call, how they felt on the phone call, pump them up, “You’re going to love this. Your photo shoot’s going to be amazing. It’s a work of art, blah, blah, blah,” and then when they come to meet you and they see you, then that’s the next experience they have. I mean, when we came into your studio last weekend and you’ve got this inviting waiting room that’s set up with treats on one side and cool nostalgic things on the other and cool chairs and the vibe and then the music’s playing and you guys come out to meet us and we were like, “This is so awesome.” So you start at the beginning there in the experience and then the finished product. That’s what I would say the marketing is. So other than that, the social media is then huge, and on top of that, we do take things to dentists on a quarterly basis. Just let them know we’re still around, but I think that the other part that we’re doing is we will ask our patients when the child gets the braces off and the mom and the child are crying and they’re like, “You just changed our lives.” I try to tip the girls to say, “Hey, if you think this is beautiful and you know somebody else that could benefit from a smile like this, would you just send them our way?” 

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s awesome. Well, and I think it’s such a measure of your branding and your marketing, if you want to put it in those terms, is that anybody that’s ever come to you, you have a million best friends in this town. I know so many people that think they’re your best friends and that you probably don’t really know them that well, and that’s not because you’re fake. That’s just because you’re so genuine and you’re so kind, and you have such a gentle and you are very present. So whenever I’ve been in your presence, even whether you’ve had your hands in my mouth or I’ve been photographing your family or whatever, you have the ability to really center yourself and be present with somebody, and that goes a really long way toward building relationships and having people feel like they’re being seen. I just feel like people feel that they can trust you and put themselves in your hands because they know that you really do care.

Stuart Frost: Thank you. I want you to know that that was not a quality in my life that I’m good at. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Really? 

Stuart Frost: I had a little bit, but it’s a quality I had to develop. In fact, I I have a gratitude journal that I write in day and night. Christie and I do this together, but in this journal, it says, “What is one goal that you’re going to do today?” and I put down almost every day, “Connect with people, look them eye-to-eye, and make them the most important person in the room.” 

Allison Tyler Jones: Wow. 

Stuart Frost: For those of you in the room that, you do it, Allison, all the time, but for those who maybe not, you can do this.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s amazing. I honestly did not know that you did that. I just figured that was who you were and part of your personality. So that is actually so good because I think sometimes we think we just come as we are, and that Saboteur that you were talking about earlier you say, “Oh, well, I could never do that,” or “I’m no Stu Frost,” or “I’m not Allison Tyler Jones. I’m never going to get those expressions out of kids because I’m not going to be a crazy person,” but you can be your own version, your true version. If you want that, you can develop that. I think for me, I’m not naturally a great listener because I’m always going a million miles an hour, but I realize the value in I heard once and I wish I could remember the reference, but they were talking about relationships and they said, “When it comes to human relationships, slow is fast,” that you know how it is with little kids, how they’re like, “Dad, dad, dad, come play Legos with me,” and you’re like, “Dude, I got a million things to do. I can’t sit on the floor and play Legos with you.” If you sit there and you are fully present and you look that kid in the eye and you’re like, “Well, what else? What else are we going to build? What else? What else?” It’s 10 minutes and they’re done with you. So slow, fully present, fully engaged, that’s crack, and crack is very concentrated. You don’t need a lot of it to get high, not from personal experience, but from what I’ve heard. Just using a metaphor here for anybody that’s worried about my illicit drag habit.

Stuart Frost: Sure.

Allison Tyler Jones: It is that that when you can just listen, whereas if you sit there on your phone and you’re like, “Yeah, honey, that looks good, yeah,” and you’re not really paying attention, they will nag you until you’re dead. It will never be enough, the half attention. So anyway, but I think you really embody that, and that’s interesting to me that you’ve cultivated that quality.

Stuart Frost: Completely. I’ll never forget. I was a year out from graduating from dental school and I went to see my dad work in the clinic. Steve and I flew home and we’re watching him and he’s connecting with the patients, telling them jokes. He’s listening to them, putting his hand on their shoulder asking, “Hey,” and he’s doing this empathy connection. I got back on the plane and going home and I looked at Steve and I go, “That’s not me. I can’t do that. I can’t be a dentist.” I got home and called my mom. I’m like, “I don’t know if this is for me.” My mom being the sweetest lady in the world and she just said, “Oh, Stuart,” she says, “you can do it.” She said this, “Fake it till you make it,” and I’m like, “Fake it till I make it?” So it was the funniest thing. The rest of that year in dental school, Steve and I were magnetic to people. We were like, “How are you doing?” We’re doing things that didn’t come natural.

Allison Tyler Jones: Those Frost twins are just amazing, but the fact that you at that tender age could recognize the value because, okay, so this is interesting. This is going to really go to my point, too. So you have a softer, a softer presence, the way you manifest that and Steve, your identical twin brother, whom I’ve also been to, has done a couple of root canals for me, he has a very different energy than you. Still caring, but a little more edge, which I think is interesting because with him, he’s literally drilling into your head and you got to make sure this dude’s going to get all the crap out of the root canal. It’s all got to be gone. 

Stuart Frost: That’s right.

Allison Tyler Jones: He’s more brisk, but yup, yup, yup, yup, he’s more fast, but equally effective and know that he’s totally thorough. So the reason why I’m going down this and highlighting this is I want, if you’re listening to this and you’re multitasking, I want you to come back to me because I want you to hear that you don’t have to be anybody but yourself. You just need be the best version of you. So if you see something that another photographer, another business owner’s doing and you think, just like what you said about your dad, “I could never be that,” of course, you’re never going to be your dad, but you’re going to be the best Stuart Frost ever and Steve’s the best Steve Frost, and I’m trying every day to be the best whatever I am, but you don’t want to be anybody else. You really, and you can’t, you can’t authentically do that, but if you are the most fully realized version of yourself, that’s the most powerful brand there is. 

Stuart Frost: This is so big, and I hope people will go back and listen to this part over and over and over again because what you just said was so powerful, and you’re not trying to be anybody else, but you’re trying to be the best version of yourself. I heard you say that and I will tell you that that takes work. It takes work. It doesn’t happen overnight. It takes years.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and it takes listening to one thing that you said is that look at the foundation of your brand didn’t really necessarily come from inside yourself. I had a friend say to me once, “We can’t see the label from inside the bottle.” Sometimes somebody outside looking in, somebody that loves us and cares about us. So maybe it was a photographer telling you that you were the artist dentist or you heard your client saying, “I want the Frost smile,” where I know you. You’re not going to be that guy that’s going to be like, “Oh, the Frost. Let’s call it the Frost Smile. It’ll be so cool,” because you would think that’s too self-aggrandizing, but when your clients are using it, you need to lean into that. 

Allison Tyler Jones: I had a client call me once and she’s like, “Okay. I cannot wait to come to you. I want your white plank floor. It’s just got to be the whole ATJ thing,” and I’m like, “White plank floor? Well, the reason why we have a white plank floor is because I built my studio wrong and we were supposed to be on the seamless and because I built it wrong, we were actually on the floor in front of it that we had to paint white. Oh, but now it’s signature.” You know what I mean?

Stuart Frost: Yeah. It’s hilarious. 

Allison Tyler Jones: That wasn’t intentional, but now, it’s the style.

Stuart Frost: I love it. This is exactly what we’re talking about. So good. I will tell you that people know when you are not being your best self, if you’re fake. They know when you’re fake. They know if you’re trying to push it. In our industry, we see a few that are trying to push their agenda on social media to make it about them instead of making it about either their patients or other things, and it’s very obvious when that happens. So I love how what you said is that authentic, let it become authentic, and then once you do, you create this amazing experience. Great.

Allison Tyler Jones: Last book that I’m going to talk about is have you read Difference by Bernadette Jiwa? It’s J-I-W-A, Difference. 

Stuart Frost: No. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So it’s really short. It’s a little pamphlet, but she talks about how that the greatest brands, I don’t want to screw this up, she says, “Basically, really, really good branding is how the client feels about themselves when in the presence of your brand.” So it’s not how they feel in the presence of your brand because that’s what those fakers are trying to do. They’re trying to be like razzle, dazzle, “I’m so cool. I’m an influencer,” or whatever. It’s not about us. 

Stuart Frost: Oh, boy. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Nobody gives a flying shit about us. Sorry to swear, but it’s true. Nobody cares, but when they are in the presence of your brand, it’s how they feel about themselves. So when I’m walking around and I know that I have a Frost smile in my mouth, that gives me confidence. It’s like having a Louis Vuitton bag on your arm or driving a … and it’s not what I’m saying about Stuart Frost and it’s not the Louis Vuitton, it’s not what it says about Louis Vuitton. It’s what it says about me that I have taste or that I have, whatever, confidence, fill in the blank. That’s something that the client makes happen. So what you’re showing on social media is you’re showing, yes, this problem that we’re solving, and then that allows the client to fill in the blank for what that means to them. 

Stuart Frost: Wow. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Then if we listen to them, say what that means to them, then that becomes our future marketing.

Stuart Frost: Wow. That’s powerful. I hope everybody’s really paying attention because that, I have never looked at it that way, even though it organically happened for me. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Totally.

Stuart Frost: That is beautiful.

Allison Tyler Jones: You won’t take it. If somebody says to you, “Oh, my gosh! You’re the best. You’ll always say, “Oh, thank you so much.” I remember you did a consultation of my teeth on my front doorstep, and I’m like, “Oh, my teeth, they’re not super white,” and you’re like, “Oh, that’s just the diet Coke. You have really nicely shaped teeth.” I took that to the banks, Stuart Frost. 

Stuart Frost: Yeah, I love it. 

Allison Tyler Jones: I’m looking at them and you got the brackets on them or whatever, I’m like, “He said I have really nice shaped teeth.” People, we’re always looking for … If anybody says a compliment or something, nice, man, doesn’t that just make your day and bring you up?

Stuart Frost: Well, and that’s what you do. You compliment people. I try to do the same thing. I go back to the beginning when you told me that I was the artist orthodontist. Words have meaning. 

Allison Tyler Jones: … and power.

Stuart Frost: I don’t know that we realize how powerful we can be. I’m reading a book called The Hero Manifest. It’s by Robin Sharma, and Robin Sharma talks about how all of us are heroes, whether we know it or not. He talks about four or five ways where we can be heroes. One of them he said is just by our interactions with other people. I’m complimenting them. When you say one word that changes their whole life and direction, that’s big. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and I truly believe, regardless of what your faith practice is, I really believe that when we get to the other side of this life and they play the video of life, we are going to be shocked at how much influence we truly had upon our fellow beings. That will be the sorrow and it will also be the joy when we see how, I always say the nice lady at church. People, when I think of things that are the core of my confidence in myself are probably throw away comments that other people made to me like, “You have a really nice air about you,” or whatever like, “You have nicely shaped teeth,” like that, still, that was something that’s part of me that made my life good. So I love all the good that you put into the world, and I love talking business and books with you and we have to do this again, and we will when you start your own podcast and I demand to be at least one of the first podcast. 

Stuart Frost: The first. I love it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Do you have any other wisdom or any other things that you would like to share with our listeners before we take off?

Stuart Frost: I think I’ve probably said too much, but I just want to acknowledge you, Allison, for a couple things. One, you’re making a difference. 

Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you.

Stuart Frost: You’re making a difference. So I acknowledge you on that, and I acknowledge you for your passion and your expertise. It shows in everything that you do. We came home from our photo shoot last weekend and everybody was just like, “I’ve never had a better experience at a family photo shoot. That was amazing.” So I want to acknowledge you for being great. You’re not just good, you’re great, and thank you for letting me be a part of this. It’s all about serving other people and helping other people. I have one last book I’m going to recommend.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Do it. 

Stuart Frost: It so good. It’s called The Go Giver. Have you heard of it?

Allison Tyler Jones: I haven’t and I haven’t read it yet.

Stuart Frost: Okay. The Go Giver is a book that I think all of us should read. There’s so many things on there. This book’s based on the five laws, stratospheric laws of giving to increase our business and our lives. It’s one of my top five favorite books because it talks about marriage as well and how in marriage it’s all about giving. He talks about marriage not being 50/50. It’s not tip for tat. 50/50 is a losing proposition. That’s like poker and nobody wins at poker. The house always wins. It’s such a good book, but it’s a pleasure to be with you, and I hope I can come back someday as well and keep up. Keep doing the great work, Allison. I can’t wait for our piece of art that’s going to arrive at our house. 

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. 

Stuart Frost: It would be fun.

Allison Tyler Jones: We’re going to look at those I think next week or maybe the week after. So anyway, thank you so much. I appreciate you more than you ever could know.

Stuart Frost: Appreciate you, too. Thank you.

Allison Tyler Jones: Have I told you lately how much I appreciate you being here? I know that you have so many demands on your time and so many demands on your attention. You could be watching Netflix. You could be listening to a true crime podcast, but you’ve spent time here at the ReWork learning to make your portrait business better, and that really means a lot to me. If there’s somebody that you feel like could benefit from this episode, that you could help them and help us spread the word in helping other portrait photographers build better businesses, please go to where you’re listening to this episode and hit that share button and share it with them, and if you have time and can give us a review, you don’t even understand how much that means to a little tiny podcast like ours to see those reviews and see how we’re helping. If you have another minute and can send me a DM and let us know what you would like to hear in the future, what you really enjoyed hearing about, maybe things that weren’t that great, how we can do better, we always want to do better, and we always want to support the portrait photography industry in helping you build the best businesses ever. Thanks again so much for being here.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at and on Instagram, @do.the.rework. 

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