Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She’ll challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the rework.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Well, today we have a very special guest in the podcast studio. We have Cris Duncan from Lubbock, Texas. He is a man that wears many hats in that he and his wife Dee, run a high-end portrait studio in Lubbock, Texas. But then he also just took over Texas School, the education powerhouse that many of you have been to many times, and so he’s got a lot of irons in the fire. And Cris and I spoke recently when he asked me to teach at Texas School in 2026. So we’re excited about that coming up, but we had a great conversation and I just wanted to bring him on and talk about Cris has seen so much. Cris has been in PPA for a long time. He has seen photographers at the very beginning coming into Texas School not knowing what they were doing. He’s seen the people that teach for the whole entire week that are some of the most successful photographers in our industry and everything in between. And then his sole support for his family is a portrait studio. And so I just thought he would be the perfect guy to talk to today, because he’s kind of a ReWork legend, really. I mean an unsung hero in the photography world. So welcome, Cris. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. We’re so happy to have you.
Cris Duncan: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here with you. So you’re talking about legends. I feel like I’m sitting here getting to converse with one, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, we’re all legends in our own mind, right? Except our kids don’t think we are.
Cris Duncan: No.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s where you go to get humbled.
Cris Duncan: Yes, for sure.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. So Cris, kind of tell our listeners a little bit about, like give us a rundown on, you’ve been in business 21 years. What is it that you do? What kind of work are you primarily shooting? What’s paying the bills? All the things.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. We’ve kind of done all of it over the course of our career, but the past, I guess 10, 15 years, we’ve kind of settled in on family and high school, senior portraiture. And in Lubbock, Texas, we’re about 300,000. So we like to say it’s big enough, you got to fight to be known, but it’s small enough that people don’t forget you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, okay. I like that.
Cris Duncan: So we’ve kind of done a lot of stuff along the events and weddings and school stuff at some point and some commercial work scattered in there. But we’re mainly family and high school senior portrait studio.
Allison Tyler Jones: Love that. And so you’ve, I mean, a lot has changed in the last 21 years. You came in probably at the advent of digital.
Cris Duncan: Yes. Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Yep. I think we were spared the pain of investing all this money and time into medium format and then just have it wiped out from under our feet. So yeah, I felt fortunate that we came in right into the digital revolution, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s awesome. And then so recently you’ve had a shift or added another job to your life.
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: You want to talk about that?
Cris Duncan: Yeah, so Don Dickson, who was the director of the Texas School of Professional Photography, he did it for the past 36 years.
Allison Tyler Jones: Wow.
Cris Duncan: 2025 in April, we celebrated our 50th anniversary. And I have been commissioned or hired or whatever you want to say from the board of directors to continue his legacy and to continue the great education that Texas School is moving forward as the new director. So that’s been a fun experience, a lot of work, but it’s been a lot of fun and learning some new things and excited about, really excited about it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So tell me, so how long have you been going to Texas School?
Cris Duncan: I’ve been involved in Texas School since 2009 as a student-
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Cris Duncan: A volunteer, and an instructor.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Cris Duncan: So.
Allison Tyler Jones: So for a long time.
Cris Duncan: Yes. Yeah, it’s really, for us, it’s been the do not miss education event for us. It’s just, I’d say it’s down the street in Texas, we don’t measure miles. It’s five and a half hours, so it’s an easy drive. The roads in Texas are straight, so you can get your nap in as you’re…
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, with a self-driving car, you actually don’t even have to do it, right?
Cris Duncan: Yeah. No. Joking aside, yeah, it’s in our backyard we like to say, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: Awesome. So what are your thoughts on, you’re 21 years in, you run a successful portrait studio, so you obviously know the game. When you look at the cross-section of people that are coming to a class like Texas School or imaging or wherever you’re at, like you have a lot of exposure to a lot of different photographers at different stages in their career. What are your thoughts? Where do you think everything is right now? How are you feeling? Are you feeling optimistic about the industry? Are you feeling worried about the industry? Like thoughts.
Cris Duncan: Man, that sometimes is a day to day battle.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, of course. Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Full transparency, there’s days you’re super excited and like, we got this, let’s go. And then two days later, you may be crying in the fetal position because a client no showed on you or something to do, like it’s all over.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. That’s called being in business, right?
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Correct. After 20 years, I think you kind of start seeing, I don’t want to say trends, but you start seeing commonalities and similarities between people that come in and there’s turnover every year. Every three to five years, there seems to be a big turnover in the industry, but I think the ones that do the work, that get up every morning, whether they’re excited or frustrated or scared, whatever, they put all that behind and they just do the work they have to do. Sometimes that work is easy, and sometimes, as you know, that work is grueling. I think those people that do that, I think the people that stay focused in a community of other like-minded business owners, they don’t have to be photographers, but being in a community, having people around you and the ones that continue to grow in their craft or their business through, in my case, in-person education, I think is so valuable. Like Texas School, like Imaging USA, like ShutterFest or WPPI.
Cris Duncan: I mean there’s no shortage of places for people to learn. And so I think those three things are what I’ve, and I’m sure you’ve talked to people in your podcast. They would all say, oh, I started out green, but I got involved. I put my head down, I did the work. I have people around me. I learned my craft, I learned my business. And they’re the ones that are still here talking to you.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s very true. But I do think that the first thing you said is definitely the key, is that you do have to do it because there is a cohort of education junkies that, and I actually might put myself in that category sometime. I love to learn. I love to go to classes, I love to learn new things, but I also know that if I don’t apply those things, I mean, it was fun to go, but I might as well have not gone because I didn’t apply it. You know what I mean?
Cris Duncan: Yes. My parents, God bless them, my brother was a basketball player, and I’m eight years younger than him. So I grew up in the backseat of their car going to games, and I’m going to age myself on this, but they love Zig Ziglar. They put tapes in of Zig Ziglar, he called it Automobile University. And one thing that I’ve adopted from Zig Ziglar, and I still listen to him today, is he says, “Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly until you can learn to do it well.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: And so I think people get in this mindset that they’ve got to be great at something to get in there. And I think you should aspire to be great, and you should want to be great at your craft, and obviously offer a quality service and product to your clients that you serve. But you just got to start doing it poorly. I mean, if I could go to the golf course and the first time play in the PGA, what would be the, yeah, that might be kind of exciting.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well actually be great because you can support both of us.
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Could you go do that right now and just send me a check? That would be awesome.
Cris Duncan: That could be exciting.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Yeah.
Cris Duncan: People that know me know I love golf. I’m an avid golfer, and it’s man, what a struggle. That has such a similarity to life there. But I think you have to be able to do it poorly, because that’s the only way you’re going to grow, is through the failures. And that’s one thing I’ve loved about Texas School. When we were instructors there, we would always tell our students, “This is a safe place to fail. You came here to fail.” It’s like going to any exercise class, you use that muscle, and man, it’s sore and you don’t want to go back the next day. But when you do, you’re glad you did. You don’t run a marathon on day one, and you don’t shoot par on day one, and you don’t have the-
Allison Tyler Jones: It is hard to remember though. I don’t think it’s hard to remember that when you’re a beginner, like when you very first start something, I think most of us will have that beginner mindset of like, oh, this is fun. And of course, I don’t know what I’m doing. But I think it comes when you actually have had some level of mastery and you got some skin in the game ego wise, thinking even to go to Texas School when maybe you have been in business for a really long time and thinking, I mean, there might be some people that would, well, I don’t want to see people thinking that I don’t know what I’m doing. But that personal development is crucial because even, like what you’re getting, I think now, let’s say 20 years in, in a business, what you’re getting now on education isn’t huge leaps. It’s not like, oh my gosh, shutter speed, what? It’s like, oh, it’s a nuance. It’s like a little tiny tweak that can make all the difference in your pricing or your lighting or whatever.
Cris Duncan: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, no, I agree. I think probably 80 or 85% of what you’re going to learn, you learn really quick-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: In your career. There’s a big gap between, or there’s not a big gap, I should say, between those beginners and someone that could probably be successful. I just want to share the story. I recently finished the Goldman Sachs Program. Goldman Sachs-
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh yeah. So say more about that. What is that?
Cris Duncan: So it’s an initiative that’s funded by Goldman Sachs. It’s through Babson University. They’re a business school. It’s a 12-week program. And I didn’t have college education or didn’t have a lot of, I like to say I was enrolled in college. Do you understand?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I do. Totally do.
Cris Duncan: But when we were there in New York for our final week at Goldman Sachs headquarters, such a great experience. We sat down at a CEO round table. So we were with different partners from Goldman Sachs at this lunch, and we had about 10 minutes to kind of ask him anything. And this one guy, his name was Greg, I cannot remember his last name right now. If it comes to me, I’ll bring it up. But he said, “Here’s the difference.” And I know you can’t see me on a podcast, but he goes, “Here’s business owners that know something needs to be done and their base level. They know they’re going to make decisions. They know something’s going to be done. And then right above it are those ones that think about it, think about the stuff that has to be done, and then you go up 10 stories and they’re the ones that make the decisions to do it.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: And I was like, man, that’s so powerful. Especially as we’ve gotten farther in our craft. It’s like, oh, we know there’s things we can learn. We know there’s things that are changing in technologies or trends or what our clients are after or marketing, whatever they are. We know they’re out there and there’s people that think, oh, I should probably look at that. And then there’s the ones that do that, and those are the ones that are still, even though they may hit bumps in the road and they may still struggle, they’re the ones-
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, yeah. They will.
Cris Duncan: They will.
Allison Tyler Jones: It makes me think of, there’s a book by Derek Sivers that I loved. I think it’s called Everything You Want. Anyway, he started this company called CD Baby, and anyway, sold it for millions, whatever, but he has this little tiny book called Everything You Want, and you could read it in an afternoon. And it’s got so many great truths in it. But one of the things that he said in there is that how people kind of get precious about their business ideas, or in our industry, they get precious about their images and their lighting, their ideas or whatever. And so he says, “Oh, well, I’ve got all these ideas and I don’t want anybody to copy my ideas.” And he’s like, “Look, ideas are only as good as their execution. The execution is the multiplier of the idea.”
Allison Tyler Jones: So if you don’t execute, it doesn’t, come to me with 50 ideas. I don’t care about your ideas. What have you executed on? Test it, figured out what worked and didn’t work. The execution is everything. And I find with my students, the ones that I’ve worked with, the people that are executors are the ones that very quickly see success. They also see failure super quick, but they are able to iterate really, really quickly. But the ones that are like, well, they want some, and I think this is human. This isn’t really a criticism, but this idea of, I want there to be this perfect path map. Just tell me the perfect way to do it. Tell me the perfect marketing plan that requires no effort on my part, that’s just going to bring them knocking on my door. And it’s like none of that actually exists. It’s just you, one person with your specific craft executing again and again and again.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. Oh, 100%. 100%. But that goes back to what we said before, doing the work, putting in the effort and-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: So with the Goldman Sachs thing, I mean, what do you feel like you got out of that for your own business that you didn’t have before?
Cris Duncan: Man, that’s a hard question. I’ve became part of a community. 12 weeks of it was on Zoom. We were broken into small sections and then smaller subsections we met, it was about 15 hours a week. So even though it was on Zoom, I felt like you know these people because you spend so much time with them. Having a community of business owners that aren’t photographers was refreshing. Not that I don’t love my photographer friends and I have a group of photographers I rely on for help sometimes day to day. Just to know that whether it’s a dog walker, or someone that has a restaurant or an ice cream shop, or they’re a real estate agent, whatever it is, they still doing it. They’re like, man, I’m struggling with Facebook marketing or my social media presence, or whatever it is. We’re like, oh, I’m right there with your sister. I could not keep up with it.
Cris Duncan: So I think having that community was great, and I kept saying through the Goldman Sachs, I’m like, what’s the catch? Why would they pour so much money into this? They’ve done this for 15 years, and over $15 million have been invested. I mean, it’s amazing how much money they invest in this program. What’s the catch? When are they going to bait and switch us? I kept waiting for that and it never came. But what was prevalent through the whole program was you’ve got to have a life that if you just work just to work, then what’s the point? When we were talking about our businesses and we were going through this plan, it’s like, what do you want to do that brings you joy? What is something that fulfills you? Even in our craft, we have those little things.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: I could say, I’ll photograph anything that has a checkbook. That may be only, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: If you have the means to pay, I’ll photograph it. But let’s be honest, not all that’s going to bring me satisfaction. Not all that’s going to bring me joy. It could even go the opposite way where it makes me resentful or it makes me bitter or.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Cris Duncan: And so I think I learned that is to really, if you’re looking for growth and you’re looking for opportunities, do stuff that you like to do, that you want to do, that you’re excited about, because those things you focus on are what’s going to expand. And after 20 years, I was so bored, I was just bored. It really was something that came along. If you look back, you couldn’t have script the timing of that any better of when the Goldman Sachs Program came into my life. It got me excited about my business again. I learned some new things that probably people might’ve learned in their business program at the university that I didn’t have.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: That may seem elementary to some. To me, it was like, this is a new concept and it was exciting. I still can’t read a balance sheet very well. But learning some of that and different processes, and operations, and hiring skills, and even firing skills, and how to negotiate with, all of it. It was just, it excited me. And then you take that into this new role at Texas School into a new, we’re at the point now, I think after 20 years, we have to find a new generation of clients. The kid I photographed newborn, he’s graduated high school and maybe married now.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Yeah, for sure.
Cris Duncan: So I’m like, oh man, we’re into a whole new generation of clients and-
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: I think that program helped lead me into that, like okay, we still have life in us. We still have stuff to give and offer to the community, but we’ve got to-
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. And what we do is still essential and so needed, but what’s the next gen? What do they need? Because again, I think we’re all more similar than we are different, but there are differences generationally in what people want and need.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, I agree. But it was kind of humbling to think, oh my gosh, we’ve already done this to a generation.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, for sure.
Cris Duncan: But to know that we still have more to offer. And that’s the exciting part. And again, if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing poorly. And so I think I’m at the age that I was that person you said with the lighting’s not right, like, oh crap, I’ve got blown highlights.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Let me slow down and fix my blown highlights to now allowing some forgiveness in my work, I think is okay, allowing some latitude in that. Really, I think what we get to do is we get to be a blessing to someone else in their life, and the camera gives us a tool to do that. It just gives us an opportunity to do that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: So.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I just, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find another career that has the level of meaning that ours does. I mean, maybe saving lives, but I don’t like blood or body fluids or any of that. So I can’t be in healthcare or math, science. But yeah, I think what we do is so meaningful, and it’s meaningful for not just our generation, but how do you keep that going? So back to my initial question, do you feel like its, portrait photography is still relevant? Do we still have an industry?
Cris Duncan: 100%. 100%.
Allison Tyler Jones: I agree.
Cris Duncan: Still relevant.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: So what’s different? What do you see, like your next chapter? So we’ve wrapped up 20 plus years. What are you doing to get that next gen in? Or what’s keeping you relevant and excited about your work?
Cris Duncan: Can I tell you when I figure it out?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. You haven’t figured it out yet. You’re in process.
Cris Duncan: It’s in process. It is. We still believe in wall art or a printed piece. I don’t discount digital. I think there’s value in that, but we don’t want that to be our sole product that we’re delivering. I can’t imagine any of your listeners that have never lost their phone, experienced a hard drive failure, or the computer just won’t reboot one day, whatever it is. And probably the first thing they say is, I had so many photos on that device. They don’t go, oh my God, I lost our budget. No one says that, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s true.
Cris Duncan: Or my spreadsheet is missing. I mean, if it’s a student, they might be upset about their essay or a paper they wrote.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Cris Duncan: But it’s always, man, all those photos I had. And so we still believe in the printed piece, and we still lean into that. I think what we’ve seen and what we’ve noticed is that everything comes and flows. Everything ebbs and flows, and it repeats itself through generations. Is that it seems like the generation coming up, and I could be wrong, but what we did was so extra to them.
Allison Tyler Jones: Meaning? Well, say more.
Cris Duncan: I’ll take a high school senior for example, like, oh, mom and dad, there’s no reason to spend this kind of money for me to have a four-hour experience and do this. Let’s just get something nice. And it’s like, oh, well, it’s almost like we could go back to, I’m not going to say Owen Mills, but almost like this 20 minute, 30 minute, we just want a great portrait, have fun doing it. I’m like, oh, I’m happy with that. We don’t need all this stuff that’s extra and-
Allison Tyler Jones: Interesting.
Cris Duncan: And so one thing that we’ve leaned into is, and one thing I learned in Goldman Sachs is to determine what your competitive advantage is. And for us at Lubbock, Texas, we think our competitive advantage is we have two studios and we have a one and a half acre portrait garden. I can count on one hand the people that have that type of like, well, let’s lean into that. Instead of going to the same parking garage or the same park or the same feature that everyone else can. Let’s narrow in and say, we can have a great intimate experience on our property that we know that we can definitely produce high quality work on with no other distractions. It’s all about you. There’s no parking, whatever it is, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Right. Well, and you know for you, like and even just process backend, you know it like the back of your hand so you’re not going and trying to scout it and figure it out and, like you know times of day and how to make that work.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. And I’ve come to the point, Allison, that I don’t think people want an experience with Cris.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Cris Duncan: I think people just want the product that CjDuncan can offer them. I could go to a restaurant and I may know who owns the restaurant, but I can tell you the chef is not back there cooking my meal. The chef is making sure the meal meets his standard.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: He’s got line cooks and he’s got wait staff and he got all this thing that they’re just making sure it meets his standard. And he’s walking the room, “Hey, thanks for coming and joining us tonight. Are you here for a special occasion? We’re so glad you’re dining with us. Is there anything I can do to make your evening more special?” He’s not back there searing my steak.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: And so I don’t go there for a chef, whatever. I go there for the experience or the product they can offer me. And I think-
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: And you mentioned it earlier as photographers like, oh, well, it’s so personal. They got to have ATJ or they got to have, and I’m at the point that if we can do stuff here with our competitive advantage that is our space that can be taught and can be replicated and that gives us so much freedom to probably serve more of the community that we couldn’t, which I think is a plus, which that would increase our bottom line. It gives us the ability to take jobs that don’t fit our product line.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: And that’s a win-win for the client. And I think that-
Allison Tyler Jones: So you’re talking about other photographers, employing other photographers in that?
Cris Duncan: Well, I mean, that’s just stuff we’ve explored because if we both stated that portrait photography is not dead, that it’s still relevant, then I hope it outlives me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, yeah. I have no doubt of that. I have no doubt of that. And to your point about the experience, I think absolutely the experience. I mean, my philosophy is it has nothing to do with me. I mean, I’m in charge of it. I’m making sure that, like you said, that it runs the way that it runs, but it’s all about them and how they feel about themselves when they’re in my studio or with me. But it’s not about me. It’s about them. How do they feel? It’s showing them to themselves and having them experience their family in a new way and each other in a new way to where that becomes a peak experience of their family. And I happened to be there, and I might’ve orchestrated that, but it’s not like, oh, that was her, and I think it would’ve failed if it was about me. It’s really about them.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, 100%. But I think, I don’t know where it came in, and maybe it’s just me that have thought this, but it’s like, oh, photography, it’s all about the name that’s on that corner. It’s like, oh, we’re going here to do work with ATJ or with CjDuncan or whoever that, and I just come. Someone in my Goldman Sachs program says, “Cris, they want the experience and the product you offer, they don’t care about you.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, but I think that there are some photographers that it is about them. I think that there are, it depends, and you can niche it however you want. Obviously you haven’t chosen to niche it that way. I haven’t chosen to niche it that way. But there are people, like you could bet that if you’re going to Annie Leibovitz and you’re going to pay her to shoot your family, it’s going to be about working with Annie Leibovitz. It’s very much going to be about her. Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so I can, yeah. Can you even imagine what that experience would be like? You’re dealing with her agent, you’re dealing with her crew. You get there, you better hope that your look good. And then they’re going to set the whole thing up and she’s going to walk on. And so basically she’s the celebrity and you’re paying for the privilege of that. But that is so rare, and it’s also to me kind of gross. I don’t love that. I don’t. I wouldn’t even want that. I want my clients to walk away, like I think my competitive advantage is that my clients walk away going, we came thinking that was going to be horrible and it was one of the most fun things we ever did.
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: We’ve actually had clients tell us, and now we use that testimonial to tell other potential clients, that this is the one time, even if it’s maybe an hour, that no one is on a device, that no one is distracted. They’re all in, whether they know they’re all in or not, they’re all focused on one end goal.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: And speaking to family portraiture. And that’s pretty rare because the moment that session’s over, those five or four or 10 or whatever, people split and they all go back to their own little device and that moment, that we’ve had people say that we spent more time together and we talked more about our family portrait experience than we did our vacations.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, have you ever had it, I’m sure you’ve had this happen, but I mean, very often we have to kick them out because they’re kind of like, they’re loving it so much, they don’t want to leave. They’re just, and they can’t really name it. They can’t really say what it is that they’re feeling because it’s just kind of an intangible, but they’re kind of like, “Oh, so that’s it? We’re done? Oh, wow.” But you can see that like, because everybody’s getting along. They’ve got the 14-year-old who is typically a troll, like you said, who phone is in the other room, who’s actually interacting with the 12-year-old sister and being a decent human. And it’s, yeah. We can make it really special rather than, I think so often we read business books and you hear about experience and we’re just adding stuff to it. Oh, have snacks and have, and yes, all of that’s great too, but it really is making that little safe place where they can love on each other and see each other.
Cris Duncan: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Get the husband off his phone or-
Cris Duncan: Yes. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Calm the mom down.
Cris Duncan: And I’m probably the worst client. I hate getting my photo taken.
Allison Tyler Jones: Same. I know I am.
Cris Duncan: And so I can completely understand that kind of mindset. And so when I hear that, it’s always falls on the dad or the husband of like, “Are we done yet?” Or whatever. But usually like, “Oh, that’s all?” It’s like, okay. I feel like I’ve…
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, no, that’s so good. I think that’s, for family portraits, that’s the ticket. I think that if you can do that, that’s more important than even your photographic skill. I mean-
Cris Duncan: Yes, 100%.
Allison Tyler Jones: It really is because it’s a memory.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. But again, it’s making it about them, and I think this all started when you said, what have I seen through different weight levels of photographers, the ones that have been around 20 years versus come in and as they don’t tend to make it about themselves, it’s about the client. We all have been customers of a place where we felt like we were treated well or the product was great, and yeah, there’s some things that are experienced, Disneyland or a super fancy restaurant or some of those you are, it is that experience, but so many things. It’s just like, are they taking care of me and what I need at the moment? Are they doing it-
Allison Tyler Jones: No, it’s horrible. Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: I mean, I think you go places and you’re just like, if I ran my business like this, I’d be out of business. And yet somehow they still have people coming in here. Almost everything, like from the doctor to everything.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, when you were talking about your Annie Leibovitz example, I’m like, that’s just like a doctor. It’s like I go to three waiting rooms, I see four different people. The doctor comes in for two minutes and gets all the glory.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Everyone else did all the work.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And he’s going to pontificate from on high what his opinion is that may or may not even have any relevance. Yeah, I think that, okay. I love that. And I think you’re right. I think the most successful photographers I’ve known and the most successful business people and the places that I like to go the most, it really, you can tell, there’s a level of confidence, that they know their stuff. They know they’re good, and they know that what they’re providing has value because it’s priced accordingly.
Allison Tyler Jones: But then once you have that confidence, we don’t have to be tooting our own horn all the time, then we can just immediately turn and say, “Okay, so Cris, you and Dee, how many kids, what’s going on? Give me the rundown on the family.” And then I can just wade into your world and just be there and support that and tell that story for you in a way that only I can just like you would tell it in a way that only you could. And then it’s all about you. It’s not, oh, this frame was made in Milan and this paper was made by monks in a French monastery in the 1700s. It’s just like, okay, whatever. That’s not about them.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. I’m sure for some studios that is important and I don’t want to discount that type of product because there’s a market out there for it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, for sure.
Cris Duncan: It just doesn’t happen to be where we fit in our business, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, it’s pick a story. Pick something that is true, because I couldn’t sell that that way because that’s not true to who I am. But there are people, that it is very true to who they are. They got on the plane, they went over to Milan, they met with the monks, and they have pictures of it on their website that they spent, that they took a vow of silence for six weeks and made the paper. Great. Let that be part of your story. But how does that translate to your Goldman Sachs thing? Great. Amazing. You’re awesome. How does that translate? And I would say even Annie Leibovitz example, how does that translate to me? So for me, if I had hired Annie Leibovitz, it would be bragging rights that I have an original Annie Leibovitz on my wall of my family. So that’s status, that’s prestige, right?
Cris Duncan: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And there’s a whole level of our industry that caters to that, like what do rich people do? So they’re going to love the monks. They’re going to love the guilty, and they’re going to love that story because that says, I’m rich and I can afford these things. But that’s not my niche. I don’t think that’s your niche.
Cris Duncan: No, I don’t think that’s our niche. Not that I would call-
Allison Tyler Jones: I mean, that’s not who I’m working with. It’s the status-y.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, that uber luxury. I mean, it kind of makes us feel good when someone goes, “Oh, we have a CjDuncan hanging in our house,” but nobody else knows. Nobody else cares.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: I’d much rather them look at that family portrait and say, Deanna would say our work should be a tangible representation of what they know in their heart to be true.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Right. So even if it was for 10 minutes on a Tuesday afternoon-
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: Everybody was happy and loving and connected.
Allison Tyler Jones: Or what that mom hopes that someday will be true.
Cris Duncan: Correct.
Allison Tyler Jones: But there’s a kernel of it somewhere, and that you can walk by it every day when you hear those two fighting and know for one second, they did love each other. And I believe they still do, and someday will again.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. So, but I think all of that, whether you are the person that likes the paper made by monks or you’re a volume photographer that’s doing school portraits, those have value too, because for some of those families, that’s the only portrait-
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.
Cris Duncan: That they’ll ever have of their child. So just because it’s a lower price point, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, for sure.
Cris Duncan: But you ask, how does that relate to Goldman Sachs? And they said, do what, that’s authentic to you. This program isn’t to make you a business that you’re not. I mean, the whole gist of it was come up with a growth opportunity, but it had to be authentic. So I think that’s so important, that it’s, and I think the customer can tell when it’s not authentic. There are those-
Allison Tyler Jones: For sure.
Cris Duncan: Companies that followed trends and go, “Oh, this is popular, or this is popular,” or “We’re going to Photoshop a dinosaur chasing this wedding party that was around for six months” and “Oh, we’re going do this now and we’re…” And it’s like, to me, it’s like the roofing companies that come in after a hail storm. None of them, they don’t care about you. They don’t care about your roof. None of its authentic to them. They’re just, sorry, I got off-
Allison Tyler Jones: No, they’re just trying to scoop up the pennies that are available at this trend at this time. But if you’re going to be in long, if you’re going to go long, and for my clients like, I want them and I tell them this the first time we meet and talk to them, “I want to see these kids grow up. I want to spend time with your family over years of time. This is not a one and done for me. This is, let’s figure out what we can do now, but then where are we headed after this?” Because I want those, relationship is core to what I do.
Allison Tyler Jones: The whole idea of there is a business model out there that’s just get them in and get the most you can out of them at that one session, and you know you’re never going to see them again. You’re never going to get a referral. Well, first of all, I’m way too lazy to work like that because I don’t want to have to get, that kind of marketing is not for me. I want to see people’s kids grow up. I want to have a relationship with them.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. I think that’s the key to longevity, is that they know that you’re there for them and you’re not there for yourself. In our negotiations clinic, we took in this program, the faculty lead said, “Don’t ever say, I’m going to do it this way because I’ll never see this person again.” Right. And that’s the kind of mentality, oh, I’ll never see this… It’s like in today’s world, you may not see them face to face, but believe me, there’s going to be a footprint of, and so it’s again-
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, and there’s a footprint on your soul when you take a shortcut like that.
Cris Duncan: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: It makes it easier to do it the next time and easier to do it the next time. So the harder, we’re probably getting a little bit esoteric here. I don’t know. But I think it’s important. I think we search for the quick fix and there’s no such thing. There’s no quick fix for a long-term success.
Cris Duncan: Correct.
Allison Tyler Jones: There just isn’t. I wish there was, but there’s not. But that’s also a good thing too, I think, because I found when 2020, when the whole pandemic happened, and we were all just like, what is this even going to be? Are we going to all lose everything? Is everybody going to die? I mean, we just didn’t, it was so unknown. But I remember, I don’t know, maybe three months into that, pulling up to my studio and thinking, you know what? I have such a foundation of clients that I have personal relationships with. I have been photographing their kids for years, their family for years. And that is something that is, it’s not going to wash away. It’s not some ephemeral thing that’s just going to wash away overnight because it was never gained by a quick fix. It was gained by foundation and layers and layers and layers of interactions and relationship.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so it’s firm. That foundation is firm, and so we’re going to be okay. I just remember just having that settling feeling of it is going to be okay, even though it was scary, even though business was crazy, even though all that. But that helped me really think, okay, so a lot of the stuff that I’ve been doing that I thought, well, is this even going to pay out going forward, it has because it’s just a little bit at a time, a little drop at a time in that relationship bucket that, now I’m mixing my metaphors, that the foundation is strong. When I start mixing the metaphors, it’s time to be done. Right.
Cris Duncan: That’s great. So I have a couple of, I don’t know if I call them mantras or sayings that kind of go along with that. My dad owned his own business and he was in construction, which is notorious for those roofing people that I was mentioning before. But he would always say, “Do what you say you’re going to do when you say you’re going to do it.” And in the construction industry, that was rare.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes, absolutely.
Cris Duncan: And there was times he missed that. In no way was my dad perfect in that. And there’s times that he would have to take care of another job and not do the one he said he would do, but he always said, “No, this is what we said we’re going to do. This is what we’re going to do.” And so I try to always remember that. Do what you say you’re going to do when you say you’re going to do it and do the right thing when the time is right. And that’s not saying you can do the wrong thing when the time isn’t right. It’s just, you’re doing the right thing and you’re doing it when the time is right. And then the third one-
Allison Tyler Jones: So what’s an example of that? What’s an example of do the right thing when the time is right? Because I’ve heard do the right thing, but what does it mean adding-
Cris Duncan: I think people will think, oh, you kind of, you’ve seen these people that say, “Oh, it’s by chance. They were so lucky. They came in at the right moment.” Right. “They were there at the right time.” No, they were doing the right thing. And when the right time was there, they continued to do the right thing. And so they were rewarded for it. They were blessed. You reap what you sow. So I’m just saying, I guess to say that is can you do the right thing and it’s going to fall in into the right times.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. It’s like making your own luck in a way-
Cris Duncan: Correct. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: By just doing hard work all the time. Yeah.
Cris Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. And then the third one I think might go contrary to some business books and some mantras, but I have a theory of there’s profit first and I think that’s a great, I’m not going against Mike Michalowicz. I think he has a great plan, but we tend to say, give first. Generosity costs you nothing. You’re going to reap what you sow. You can’t, that’s a natural law and that’s a spiritual law in my book, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: So what’s an example of that? What’s an example of that?
Cris Duncan: I think knowing not every job has to have a transaction at the end of it. I think sometimes it’s doing more work than you probably were commissioned to do. Maybe it’s volunteered. Doesn’t always have to be financial.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Cris Duncan: It could be volunteer work. It could be donating a session to somebody. It could be working for a nonprofit so they can get some, I mean, I think there’s lots of different ways it can be.
Allison Tyler Jones: For sure.
Cris Duncan: But I just think generosity doesn’t cost us a thing.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well-
Cris Duncan: Time, talent, treasure. I mean, I think you’re an example of this. You’re being generous with your talents doing a podcast. I can’t imagine a podcast yields a lot of financial return.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, only costs money.
Cris Duncan: Right. Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: A lot. It’s actually expensive.
Cris Duncan: Right. Well, that’s generosity to the industry because you value this industry and you want-
Allison Tyler Jones: I do.
Cris Duncan: Portrait photographers to have, sure, you want it to have good businesses. I’m not saying to heck with making money and running, I’m not saying that, but this is a giving forward, a paying forward, a generous thing to do. I mean, technically it may cost you thing, but at the end it doesn’t cost you anything. That’s-
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I think what I’m hearing you say, and what I believe to be true too, is that generosity of spirit, it’s a way of looking at the world. If you’re always looking at the world of like, well, what’s in it for me? How can I get something out of this? What’s in it for me? Then that’s a pretty transactional way to live and not necessarily that fulfilling. Right. And then every interaction with a client, don’t we always want them, even if they are paying us, to feel like I got way more than what I paid for? And that’s just little things. That’s just listening to people, seeing them.
Cris Duncan: I would hope so. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then if we build businesses that are sustainable and profitable, then you actually have more to give. You actually really can. I love it because we’ll have a couple of sessions a year where we’re able to do full boat for free for somebody that could never have afforded it because they’re in a dire situation or whatever. So I mean, that’s like, yeah. I totally agree. I think the generosity is huge.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, so. Yeah. Again, I think it’s, for your listeners, maybe it’s a military family that comes in and they want something. And I don’t think you advertise them. We don’t advertise a military discount, but there’s times that Deanna has been in that salesroom and she goes, “You know what? We’re going to give you that portrait.” And it’s just because that’s where she felt led at the time.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: And I would rather have 20 clients that came to me every year than had to fight for 20 new clients every year. Or maybe that number’s 50 or maybe that number’s 10, or maybe that number’s-
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. No. Yeah, because then it’s fun. I mean, then you get to see them grow up, and it’s just, and it’s a nice way to do business.
Cris Duncan: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: Way less stressful.
Cris Duncan: But you can never get there if you make it about you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Totally agree. Totally love it. As we’re wrapping it up, that was so good. I love it. Talk about Texas School and that education. Give us the rundown on what’s coming up and what are you excited about for next year?
Cris Duncan: Oh yeah. So Texas School, we just like to say this is one week that will change your life. What makes it unique from other educational things is you pick one instructor or a group of instructors, and you’re with this one small class, 20 to 30 students, depending on the class all week. So it’s really way to deep dive into a technique or a system or a process. So we’re really excited about 2026. We’ve got some new instructors coming that have never been before. We’ve got some of the, I guess you would call them staples. They’ve been there many years and so many people plan Texas School like, “Oh, I’m going to take this person this year and the next year take this and the next year take this.” So we also have some repeats, but no man, we’re really excited about the opportunities we have in Texas school.
Cris Duncan: We’re doing one thing new this year that wink, that you know about. We want to cater to studios like us that have been in the business a couple decades, but they’re still eager to learn, but they don’t need ratios. They don’t need layer mask, they don’t need that kind of stuff. And there is a need for that. And we have classes for those photographers as well. But doing a mastermind class with you, with ATJ and David Hilton and Elizabeth Homan and a few other guest that are going to appear in that class to really mastermind and work through some advanced level high studio work. It doesn’t have to mean high dollar, but just high level studios that want to continue to produce. So we’re excited to have that offering that’s new. Always, we have great instructors that can teach you those lighting ratios and inverse square, and I think learning your craft is important. I want airline pilots to know their craft. I want doctors to know their craft.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: I want my plumbers to know their craft. If my dad didn’t know his craft, many houses could’ve burned down. So knowing-
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Cris Duncan: Your craft is important. So we have classes for that, but also got to know how to run a business, and we’ve got classes for that. So Texas School, we’re really trying to build it this year as the place for in-person education. I think the value of in-person education cannot be understated.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’ve taken a lot of education. You’ve also taught a lot of education. What do you feel like is particular about in-person?
Cris Duncan: Well, for one, you realize that there’s someone next to you that has the same questions you have, and maybe they’re not afraid to ask it or they can ask it in a way that you wouldn’t have thought to ask it, that you can never get by watching a YouTube video or attending a webinar.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Cris Duncan: Not that those, there’s value in those. I mean, I have online education that I thinks valuable, but you can’t get that feedback.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: You can’t get the failure moment and then the rebuild from the failure moment, which is so much more important than the success.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: If I hit a bad golf shot, I want to know why I hit it bad so I don’t hit it bad the next time.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Cris Duncan: So I have to-
Allison Tyler Jones: You just hit it bad in a different way the next time.
Cris Duncan: And so at Texas School, that’s great. Like, oh, this is why you made a mistake. Now we can prevent it from happening next time. I think that’s why people love to go to yoga or to spin classes. I mean-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, community.
Cris Duncan: I’m sure the people, Peloton may be a great product, but you’re going to have more fun spinning next to someone in a room with an instructor and other people than in your bedroom, whatever it is on a Peloton.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: But why do we as photographers say, oh, well, I’ll just learn it online, but we go to spin classes and we go to-
Allison Tyler Jones: I think you need both. I think-
Cris Duncan: Or we go to book clubs or we go to-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Yeah. I think you need both, I think because sometimes you can’t go and you still need to practice, right? But to set aside a week a year to go and be in community with other photographers and a lot of it, so much of it’s, I feel like with in-person education are the conversations that happen in between the teaching.
Cris Duncan: Yes. Yeah. You can learn so much having dinner with somebody than you can from the instructor.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Cris Duncan: So-
Allison Tyler Jones: It all plays in together.
Cris Duncan: Yes. Yeah. So.
Allison Tyler Jones: Awesome. Okay. Well, so when does registration open for that?
Cris Duncan: Yeah, so thanks for staring me clear for that. Registration opens January 3rd at 11:00 PM Central Time. We have 33 great classes, eight pre-cons. We’re calling those Texas School Saturday. Just like wine and cheese, you need both of them. Classes many times sell out at 11:01 PM on January 3rd. So you’ll-
Allison Tyler Jones: Wow.
Cris Duncan: Be there at that time to register as soon as you can. Go to TexasSchool.org. You can see all the great offerings we have this year for our instructors, our pre-con classes, the social activities that we have that are included, our trade show vendors that are going to be there. So not only can you learn some new stuff, you can get the best gear and new products out there to continue to wow your clients and to give them the most amazing products and experiences too, so.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, we’ll link to all of that in the show notes. You’ll send us all that stuff, and we’ll make sure that everybody has that so that they can, if you’ve never been to Texas School, I’ve never been. I’m excited to go.
Cris Duncan: Oh, we’re thrilled to have you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I’m excited to go, and it’s been a pleasure to get to know you and to spend a little bit of time. And so thank you so much for your words of wisdom and expertise and sharing your Goldman Sachs experience with us, and really looking forward to meeting you in person and seeing you in April.
Cris Duncan: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a great time.
Allison Tyler Jones: Thanks so much. Appreciate you.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at Dotherework.com and on Instagram @Do.the.rework.
