Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do The ReWork.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. Today, we’re talking about one of the most powerful and often overlooked sales tools that you already have in your business, your very own clients. I am joined by the legendary Tim Walden, the famous portrait photographer whose work and brand are built on deep emotional connection. Tim’s approach goes beyond creating beautiful images, he creates a session experience so meaningful that it is inextricably tied with his work.
Allison Tyler Jones: In this episode, Tim and I dig into how to create a level of loyalty, the small but intentional things that you can do to inspire enthusiastic referrals and why your existing clients can often do a better job selling you than any ad campaign ever could. If you’ve been wondering how to turn happy clients into raving fans who bring you your next dream client, you’re going to love this conversation. And I know we all love Tim. Let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, it has been a minute since we have had our number one very favorite, favorite, favoritest guest ever on the podcast, and that is Mr. Tim Walden from Lexington, Kentucky. Welcome.
Tim Walden: Well, thanks. I always love it. I love hanging out with you and I love talking to the people that listen to you. They’re special people. Thanks for having me.
Allison Tyler Jones: They are. Well, a lot of the people that come to your workshops and that listen to this podcast are the same people.
Tim Walden: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And that is a huge compliment to me because anybody that loves you, I’m happy to have them in my world.
Tim Walden: You’re so kind. You’re so kind. Well, no, you’re doing the right things and the people that hang out with either of us and others as well, are there because they want to grow and learn. So I applaud you, all of you for that. That’s such an important part. Never sit still.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. One of the things that we were chatting before we started to record and you just threw off a gem as you are want to do, we were talking about sales, and you said really, your best salesperson is your client. And so, I just felt like insert hitting the brakes soundtrack, little… back up, I want to talk more about that. And so, that’s what we’re going to talk about today. So I’m putting you in the hot seat and make you tell me what you mean when you say that our best salesperson in our business as our client.
Tim Walden: Well, it means that we as image makers, need to maybe quit looking at our art from our perspective and quit looking at it so much from the process and some of the functionality of it, but look at it from what it does for our clients. And they’re the only ones that can tell us that. I think ultimately Allison, for me, it’s story learned, story told. So if I’m learning a story from someone, it could be a story or it can be a personality trait, or it can be something about their husband, their wife, their children, whatever it is, that not only goes in my mind, it goes on a piece of paper. And I review that before a session and I find that happening in the session.
Tim Walden: If you tell me about Ivan or something I learn about it or I learn something about your children, that plays a key role to when I push that button because I want to tell that story. And so, when I get in the selection appointment, I want to say, “Allison, do you remember what you told me? That’s what I see here. Just remember what you told me about your son, your daughter? Remember what you told me about your husband?” And so, I’m using that particular information because it’s my personal challenge as an artist to tell your story with my skillset. I need to use my skills and my abilities, but it’s your story.
Tim Walden: This goes back to when we talk about marketing. It’s like market the result of your art. When we go into the sales room, we market the result of the story. We market the story, or we sell the result of the art. So I’m always saying, “Do you remember what you told me in our design? You remember what you said in the session?” That’s what I see in this particular art form.
Allison Tyler Jones: So can we role play that a little bit because I’d love to hear how it actually sounds? So we haven’t shot the images yet, where we’re having a pre-session consultation. This is why I’m assuming you’re gathering this information.
Tim Walden: One of the key places.. Not the only place.
Allison Tyler Jones: Not the only place. Okay. So what does that sound like? If you’re gathering that information from me, what are you asking me? How are you extracting that information?
Tim Walden: Well, I have my go-to questions always that many have heard. It’s like, if this portrait is a chapter in your life, what’s the bold print? But a lot of times I think the real skillset is in what you do right here in this podcast. You start asking questions based on what you’re hearing, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Mm-hmm.
Tim Walden: So you say, “Oh gosh, tell me about your son. Tell me more about that. What is it about that? What are your goals and your ambitions for him?” It just kind of freaks people out, Allison, because they’re going to photographers and they’re hearing, “Do you like the blue background or do you like the green background?” Like, no-
Allison Tyler Jones: What are we going to wear?
Tim Walden: Yeah, what are we going to wear?
Allison Tyler Jones: What park are we going to shoot at?
Tim Walden: Exactly. And I think there’s a place for plugging in some of the obstacles that we can run across, but ultimately, I want to be a really good communicator and I want to be a listener. And I’ll say, “Now, when you come for your design, I want you to bring some photos of your kids too. I want to see them and bring your phone. Let me see them.”
Tim Walden: And they’re showing me that. I say, “Oh, man, they look so cute. What do you love about that? Tell me about their expression. What are your ambitions? What are your goals?” Half the time I feel like I’ve become somewhat of a therapist or a counselor. And I say that as an honor, not as a negative.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. It’s my favorite part of what we do.
Tim Walden: It’s an honor. People will tell us things. And of course, it has a line, they all do. But people will tell us things that we don’t realize they’re going to share, if we open that door. And then what we want to do is, we want to capture the heart and the spirit of those people. I’ve learned expressions and poses when I was learning, but now I’m looking for body language, I’m looking for stories, I’m looking for moments.
Tim Walden: And I can tell you that without exception, to the best of my recollection, I’ve never run into a situation where I haven’t seen the story play out, some degree. It could be in the way someone caresses someone. It could be little things that I see. It could be in expressions, it could be in people relating. And then my goal becomes applying my skill without compromising their story. That’s key. I love that and I hate it all at the same time because I was raised by a technician. My father was amazing at lighting and posing and finessing.
Tim Walden: But I want more than that. I want that, but I want story told. I don’t sell square inches, I sell what goes on those square inches. It’s about those stories, it’s about those things. So the more I learn, and I learn that mainly in the design. The design appointment is the start of your sales appointment. It is a start of it. And yes, there is a place for talking about what clothing we’re going to wear. I don’t let people choose props and backgrounds obviously, but I do talk about clothing. There’s certainly a place to talk about where we’re going to see this art hanging. All of that plays a role. But it’s like a body without a heart for me. There’s no beating heart. It’s just the body, it just doesn’t have any meaning to it. So I want to learn those things.
Tim Walden: And then when I’m in the camera room, I begin to see them play out and I listen very carefully, and I create an environment that allows for that. I become vulnerable in a camera room. I never laugh at people. I never say sit up, smile. I don’t do stuff like that. I draw it out. And a friend of both yours and mine, Drake Busath, told me years ago when I was teaching with him, he said, “The key to expression is engaging the mind.” And so, you create an environment where you can engage someone’s mind and you begin to see the story because the camera is the object of fear. It’s the drill at the dentist office. So we got to make it invisible.
Tim Walden: And when it gets invisible and you get vulnerable, you create an environment with the right music and no distractions. And you give people permission to be themselves, whether it be a fun dancing and playing, or whether it be a really quiet intimate moment, that’s going to begin to come out. And it’s your job as an artist and as a communicator to draw those things out. How are you going to draw that out if you don’t know it? And so, I think the time I spend in a design appointment affects the quality of my work. It affects my sale and it affects my brand as much as anything else I do. And I don’t understand why we don’t do it.
Tim Walden: I remember one other thing. You know how much I love my dad. We’ve talked about him, I love him dearly. But my dad wasn’t always a great businessman.,He was a great image maker. And I remember he would say, “Oh, well, people don’t want to come in and do these appointments. They don’t want to do the design appointments. It takes time.” And then you always find a reason. Somebody would call and say, “Oh, this such and such a studio wants me to come in their place and I don’t want to do that.” And he says, “See, we wouldn’t have booked that if we did these things.”
Tim Walden: But yet, everything we did was so ordinary. It was so driven by people that didn’t have a passion for the art. They were clients that just wanted something cheap and [inaudible 00:10:49].
Allison Tyler Jones: But isn’t it funny? That’s a great example of how when we tell ourselves a story, we will make it true. We tell ourselves that because it’s something that we don’t want to do. It’s hard, scary, fill in the blank of negative emotion. And then we’re just going to make it true rather than push ourselves.
Tim Walden: You can always find an incident to make your point. You can add the context you want to something. But if we look at it in truth… I would say that’s been one of the keys for me, Allison, is getting closer to people. The other night I was home and a client texted me something funny or texted me something their kids did. And it wasn’t about, “Hey, let’s do…” I didn’t write back and say, “We need to do a portrait.”
Tim Walden: It was just somebody that cared about me, I cared about them because we crossed over a parameter. And so, when you go and learn photography, you better be careful because sometimes you don’t realize that the things that are going to serve you well are not just necessarily the camera you buy, the ratio you light things with. Those are important, but it is creating an art piece unlike any others. Distinction, purpose, value, those type of things.
Allison Tyler Jones: So do you have an example of a client that really bears that out that could give us an example of what that sounds like? That you met them, you talked to them, they shared a story. How you took it into the camera room, and then how it bore out in the later…
Tim Walden: Yeah. There’s so many of them. One of portraits that has meant the most to me, and it’s one I’m sure you’ve seen. Maybe as I describe it, you’ll know, but it’s just very meaningful to me. But it was a gentleman that provided for children, a home while they found their forever home, like foster home. Sorry, I couldn’t think of the term. So foster children. And then along came this young lady named, Becca. And Becca was, gosh, I don’t know how old she was then. Maybe 8, 10 years old. And I ask him, and they adopted Becca. And Becca had had a number of challenges emotionally and in other ways. And you couldn’t help but fall in love with her, she was amazing. And so, Darryl, I was talking to him and said, “Darryl, this portrait’s a chapter in your life. What’s the story I need to tell? What does this portrait need to say?”
Tim Walden: And he said, “I just want Becca to know that she’s always safe and she’s always secure.” And I’m like, “Okay, we’re going to find that.” Well, he was somewhat of a bodybuilder, like myself here. What are you laughing at? But had some big strong arms. And I remember, I said, “Well, you’re going to be in it. I want you to wear a T-shirt.” And just because he just was big and strong, and just his arms around her. And it said safe and secure.
Tim Walden: And one of the first relationship portraits I ever did… that actually was the second one I ever did. There was a young man looked over his father’s eyes. And I looked over his father’s shoulder and his mom had said, “Hey, man, if I look into his eyes. I just see his dad. I just see his dad when I look into his eyes. He’s got his father’s eyes.” And while I was changing film, which is always the best time.
Allison Tyler Jones: Of course, Yes. They break your heart. You have to turn your back, so that you want to see it.
Tim Walden: We call that 13…
Allison Tyler Jones: They start doing back flips. Yeah.
Tim Walden: So I was changing film and I saw him over his dad’s shoulder and I did this portrait. And we competed with it. We called it His Father’s Eyes. But it told the story. I don’t know that I would’ve seen that, Allison. And then it’s so easy. In the sales room, it’s not like, “Well, do you like his smile?” Or, “Do you like the outfit?”
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Which one do you like better, this one or this one?
Tim Walden: Yeah. It’s like we’re giving an eye test. It’s like, this or this. But all of a sudden I said, “You remember what you told me? That’s what I see in this particular portrait.” And I remind them of what they told me. “Darryl, do you remember what you told me about Becca? You always want her to be safe and secure. That’s what I see in this portrait.” And people have stories. We have to learn them. And you and I, a lot of our close friends do a lot of amazing digital things, and then you tell stories about putting pieces together, but I just want to tell it on a blank canvas.
Tim Walden: And I want to do it with no apologies, and I want to do it in more subtle, intimate ways. And I’ll guarantee you, if you learn someone’s story, I’ll promise you this, you’ll be a different photographer, guaranteed. If you know their story when you go in that camera room, you’re going to push the button at a little different time. You’re going to see things a little differently.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, it becomes more of a collaboration and you can’t help but be influenced by them. And then fast forward to when you’re sitting making the image selections, that’s completely different and so much more rich. And it’s not a sales appointment, it’s not me trying to get you to do something. It’s like, “Can you believe you created these amazing humans? Can you believe that you have this in your family?” You’re showing them to them.
Tim Walden: Yeah, what’s that worth versus record? You don’t need you or I to record their faces. They can do that a lot cheaper than us, but they do need you and I to tell their story to celebrate their life. To do something bigger and better and to do it purposefully. Part of what we do is skills that we’ve had to learn, talent. But another part of it’s just being intentional. Just pay attention to it. Talk to people, ask them questions, do those type of things, and then it plays out in that camera room.
Tim Walden: And it’s not just sad stories. A lot of it’s just wonderful. They’re fun and sometimes they’re just little subtle things, the nuances. But that’s why when I talk about style, I tell people, for me anyway, every decision is the style decision for me. Every decision. What does your studio look like? What do you wear to work? What camera do you have? What lights do you buy? What clothing do people wear? What backgrounds do you choose?
Tim Walden: For me, that’s all driven by style, color work, very classic, but black and white relationship. I need a canvas. I don’t want to say, “Gosh, I’m doing a portrait of you and I, but Ivan, your ties crooked. Let’s fix that.” I just want things to happen. And I want a high level of forgiveness without having to apologize for my art. So I create a canvas so to speak, not physically, but a canvas of what are they wearing? And what’s happening in front of me that allows me freedoms to create powerful images without apologizing for buttons that are off or things that are crooked. So to me, it’s all a style decision.
Allison Tyler Jones: So just to make sure I’m understanding. On the relationship portrait side, that’s the darker T-shirt, whatever, so that it’s not distracting, right? And then a lower key image, so that you’re not distracted by a lot of things going on in the environment.
Tim Walden: Absolutely. High visual impact. That’s what I tell clients, “I want high visual impact.” And when I ask a client, I’ll say, “Listen, I want you to do me a favor when we install this portrait in your home. When you first come in, don’t turn your lights on, just leave them off. Leave everything off. What’s the first thing you see? If it’s the people you love and the story we’ve told, we’ve done it right. If it’s stuff in that image, we have not done it right. We’ve not done what we set to do. Leave those lights off. Look at what you see in that portrait, and you see the faces, you see the hands, you see the embraces.”
Tim Walden: “And then when you turn the light on, you can expect every detail that you expect from a professional, from somebody who knows what they’re doing. All those things will be there when that light comes on.” But it’s when that light’s off that the story’s first told. And that’s why I want that beautiful impact. And that’s why I love high key. I love all that stuff. I love it. But for our relationship work, we have strategically selected to do this with deeper tones, high visual impact, strong lighting, and a lot of forgiveness.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s interesting. I didn’t ever think about the forgiveness aspect because I feel like with our… what we call our modern line, which is what most people would call high key, but just basically predominantly light tones, featureless background. That is the forgiving element for us because we’re dealing mostly in full length portraits. But stuff is happening, so I’ve got to have enough light where if they’re running around a little bit or they’re moving, it’s not going to be like, oh, they’re in, they’re out. It’s like that they’re in. And then giving them room to play.
Allison Tyler Jones: Whereas, I think it’s almost like we’re an inverse of each other because with that black and white relationship portraiture, it’s very tight and close. And mine is like a dad, and then I’ve got the two boys running in off of either side to try to knock him over, or whatever.
Tim Walden: You’re they’re telling stories. That’s just a different way.
Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. But I think it’s fun to look at it and say you don’t have to do it your way, but have a reason why you’re doing it. It’s in service of the story.
Tim Walden: See, that’s it right there, Allison, is like, why are you doing it? I steal this term from a friend, Audrey Wineker, who said backgrounds are either opinionated or non-opinionated. So when I’m creating a relationship portrait, like what you’re talking… I want non-opinionated backgrounds. I’m looking for forgiveness there.
Tim Walden: There’s nothing wrong a scene. There’s nothing wrong with a tree line. I do some of that with color. I love classic portraits, but that’s not what the most powerful storytelling art is. So I don’t want a background playing a role in my imagery, other than being there for me to feature the people in front of it in an attractive way, but not in a distracting way. And so, that’s why everything’s a style decision. What camera do you use? What lights do you use? All of those things, if you’re not defining who you are or working toward that, I question whether you can really make the best decisions.
Tim Walden: Because my dad, I keep talking about it, but he used to say, “If you don’t know where you’re going, any road will take you there.” So if you don’t know the destination, then how do you know how to map it out? And so, I think that’s the beauty of clarifying your style. And clarity is that first key to me, is like, “Who are you and what do you do? That’s the first thing I want people to… “Who are you? What do you do? Who are you? What do you do?” For us, you know who it is. We’ve been around a long time. Sometimes I get tired of saying it because I think I’ve said it so many times. But I’m also proud of the fact that here we are decades later, still makes my heart beat faster.
Tim Walden: I still love celebrating people this way. It’s still less about the photograph, more about the story, and the photograph is the vessel or the vehicle that I understand how to use to carry that story. When you do that, it’s powerful.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and that is also how I think your client becomes the salesperson, because it’s not about you. It is about you because it’s your talent and all of those style decisions that you’ve made. You’ve purchased the lights, you’ve purchased the camera, you’ve developed the talent and all of that.
Allison Tyler Jones: But it really is only in service of telling that client’s story, so that when they look at… It’s just like with my sister in interior design. The clients that love her work the best are the ones that walk through and go, “Isn’t this amazing what I did?” And so, she becomes invisible in a way, in the best way. Because then when somebody says, “Oh, so you designed it?” “Oh, well, no. DeCesare Design Group did.”
Tim Walden: She facilitates their story.
Allison Tyler Jones: But she facilitated because we travel and we loved this, and this was inspired by our trip to London. And she’s telling the story of their life lived in an envelope, which is their home. And so, when you really can lay your ego down and make it in the service of the client’s story, then you don’t have to sell it. Because if it’s true and they can see it…
Tim Walden: And you were asked early on, what are some of the things that…?
Allison Tyler Jones: They have to have it, that’s what they want.
Tim Walden: Absolutely. I’m an active listener when clients are in front of me. And they’re so used to going places and being told what to do, but I figured they know what they want or they wouldn’t be here because we are so well defined. The people that don’t like it, as you know, they don’t come here. So the people that do come here, that’s what they want.
Tim Walden: So I’m an active listener, “Just tell me about your family. Tell me more.” And a lot of times it’s a lot like what you’re doing right here. Like I say, it’s just listening to what they say. And people love to talk about themselves and the people they love the most. And I hear a lot of image makers and just people in general, all they do is talk about themselves, is like, “Oh, and gosh, I don’t want this to sound harsh, but this is my lighting and I won this award.” And it’s like, okay.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. We use only the finest materials.
Tim Walden: Yeah. And I think the old saying, the heart buys, the mind justifies. There is a time for some validation, but I don’t think the time for validation is when you and I are sitting down to create a piece. What I want to hear from an artist too, when you talk to them, is like, “This is what I see.” This is what I’ll tell a client in a selection appointment, I’ll say, “You remember the story you told me? That’s what I see here. This is what I see in your home. Here’s how I see it being used. Here’s what I see in a year, 5 years, 10 years.”
Tim Walden: I think great salespeople can take you from today to 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road. And then of course, as we talk about sales, we start at the end. I never want to start at the beginning of a sale, ever. Like, “Here’s the images. Now, let’s narrow it down.” No. Just, “Here’s what you need. Here’s what I see based on your story, Paul. This is what I see in your home. We’re done. Now, the only way we go anywhere else is if you lead me there.” Be like, “Tim, I love that, but I was thinking…” “Okay. Well, let’s talk about that.” And then we’ll go somewhere else or we’ll adjust. But I start every sale at the end. I’m basically through, here it is. Lead-
Allison Tyler Jones: So when you say at the end, they come in and you’re showing them the wall that that portrait is hanging on, the images that you’ve selected for a collection or an album or whatever?
Tim Walden: Yeah, that’s right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And, “This is what we talked about. This is what I think you should have.”
Tim Walden: Yeah. And I usually say, “This is what I see.” Gosh, the more I think about it Allison, and maybe it’s getting older, I don’t know. But I just feel like that we do so many things, we dance around so many things. And then we say, “Well, if we tell people what to do, it’s cocky.” I don’t think it’s cocky.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s your job.
Tim Walden: I think that’s why they chose you to start with, to do your job. And so, it’s like, “Allison, this is what I see for your family. This is what I see in your living room. Remember the story you told me about Ivan? You and Ivan, this is where this needs to hang.” So I’m taking you back to the stories you told. I’m taking you to a conclusion and we’ve had this conversation. It all started with our landscape architect 100 years ago. So we’re done.
Tim Walden: Then we’re starting at the end, if there’s adjustments, we’ll make those adjustments. I never pressure anybody, I never do. But I take them to a vision as an artist, and I take them to one that tells their story. I tell them how to use their art as we’ve talked about, with letter writing to their children, all those things. So I’m adding purpose, and I’m adding value and emotion in those ways. And then you do the hardest thing you’ve ever done, just shut up, listen. Just shut your mouth. They’ll say, “but,” or, “we can,” or, “I have three textures.” It’s like, oh, God.
Allison Tyler Jones: No. And I think I’ve said this on the podcast before, so forgive if I did. But I think when you think about the times in your life when really, really scary things are on the line, it’s usually a sick child or a sick person in your life. So if you’re with a doctor or a healthcare professional and there’s scary stuff on the line. So this is a level of expertise that you and I, we’re never going to have that much on the line. But what is the thing that every parent or child or whatever asks the doctor? If it were you, if this was your kid, what would you do? If this was your mom, what would you recommend as a course of treatment?
Allison Tyler Jones: And so, that’s when it’s dire. But this is no less seeking that opinion. It’s no less important. It’s like you’re hiring an expert, you’re hiring a professional, and you want to know what their opinion is. And the more you have an opinion and the stronger that opinion becomes I think, the more valuable it becomes and the more your clients want it.
Tim Walden: And that’s why I think education is so important, like what you’re doing is because I don’t worry about what I say to somebody because I’m making it up or they believe me. It’s coming from my heart. I’m stating fact, I’m stating experience. “Allison, this is what’s going to happen in five years and 10 years when you look at that portrait on your wall. When your kids go off and get married, here’s how you’re going to use it.” I don’t go, “Whoa, I wonder if that’s really true.” No, I know it’s true.
Allison Tyler Jones: You know it’s true.
Tim Walden: I know it’s true. So I’m not afraid. I don’t cower down. I’m the one that can connect them. That’s why I say a lot of success in the selection appointment comes in being able to take you down the road to another place. And as I’ve said many times, I think the enemy of photography is not money, it’s procrastination. And so, people procrastinate, and then there’s regret. And so, a lot of our marketing deals with that mindset. It’s not like, well, we’re worth the money or our canvas is better than your canvas. My frame’s better than your frame. No. It’s more about avoiding those regrets.
Tim Walden: And so, this is things that we talk about, even with somebody who’s made that choice is, I’ve never had somebody come back to me and say, “Gosh, I wish I’d bought fewer images and bought them smaller.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Or done it less often.
Tim Walden: I’ve had them the other way. Yeah. And so, procrastination is the easiest thing in the world to do. And it is to me, squarely in the center of what we have to take aim at. There are other objections we have to overcome. But I think at the heart of that, for photographers, especially high-end photographers, is procrastination because it’s like, well, I need a new whatever, or I’ve got to get this. Or so and so is playing baseball.
Tim Walden: And I’ll tell them, I’ll say, “Let me tell you something else. This is probably going to be difficult for you to get your kids through the door. They’re going to fuss. You just need to do it because I can promise you, you’re going to regret not doing it. I can tell you from experience. And if you need to, please just blame me. Just tell them, say, “Hey, listen, Tim and Bev, they’re insisting on it. They want you to model.” Just tell them that. I don’t care what you tell them, but I will tell you-“”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Just get them here.
Tim Walden: Yeah. Get them here.
Allison Tyler Jones: Get them in the building. We’ll handle everything else.
Tim Walden: Yeah. You got what? A tween, a girl, boy doesn’t make any difference. When is the convenient time? Never. But when is the important time? Now. Yeah. And I’ll tell them, “You pull up your sleeves.”
Allison Tyler Jones: And one of the things that you said too, when you said you can speak from truth because in five years, I think many of our friends, many of us are not 20 years old. And so, I think some of our friends are saying, “Well, am I still relevant? Maybe the younger people that are coming into the industry, I’m not as cool,” or whatever. And I think, man, if I had known then, what I know now… what I know now is that being older is such a superpower in this business. Being an older mom, being a grandmother.
Allison Tyler Jones: Because I can speak with authority and know that absolutely a 4-year-old is going to be a 5-year-old, is going to be a 6-year-old. They are going to change and not just looks, but attitude and that you’re going to be so sad that you didn’t get that picture of your little girl when she was so in love with her dad and wanted to marry him or your little boy that loved you to distraction or whatever.
Tim Walden: I think wisdom comes with applied knowledge, and that’s where you have knowledge. But then when it’s applied over time, it becomes wisdom. One of the things that is important, is that our work remain investment worthy. And I think we learn more about that as time goes right? It’s like, is it truly worthy of the investment we’re asking people, even though there’s so many photographers out there? I think if you create a style of work and a method that truly makes your work investment worthy, then that… If we’re storytellers with our work, why would we want somebody experiencing the story on an iPhone with a slice of pizza on a subway?
Tim Walden: I’m sorry, but that’s not the way I want your story told with our work, and I don’t think it’s the way it’s best told. There’s both a real and a perceived value to an actual piece of art on a wall, the way the story is experienced, the way it’s told. So I think as we go along in life, we have a skillset maybe that we don’t even realize that we had. That is that ability, not only to create a style of work that’ll stand the test of time. It’s not novel or cute. Those things are great, but they have a place, and I don’t think that place is in a 20, 30, $40,000 order. I think you want something when you walk in the home, it tells that story in the most meaningful, powerful way, and it has longevity to it.
Tim Walden: So I want my work to be investment worthy. And I tell you, it’s so funny because when we switched from film to digital ages ago, my biggest concern wasn’t like, what are the cool things I can do with digital photography? My concern was, how do I maintain my standards so when that portrait hangs next to the one that was done five years ago and I printed it in the dark room, how do I not have to apologize for it? Because to me, there’s classic qualities that you and I have learned through just life and from experience.
Tim Walden: And so, I don’t know that even though there’s so much out there, and it has a place, it’s great, it’s wonderful, enjoy it. But if somebody’s going to write you a check and it’s going to be on the wall, I think there has to be a level of worthiness. And part of that is clean, simple, to the point storytelling done with absolute quality and no apologies. If I have to apologize for something, then I screwed up.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Okay. I love this so much. Okay. So the concept of investment worthy, and then also the longevity and of the work transcending time. And so, this is something that now, you’re way more than me in, but I’m like 20 years in. This is something that is very much on my mind. Yesterday, we went out to a client’s home where they had just done a remodel. They’d pulled all of our images off the wall, and then images from other photographers. They had lived in Seattle prior to moving here, but I’ve been photographing their girls for the last 15 years. So we had an entire wall that we had to rehang, and then add some new images into it from a recent session.
Allison Tyler Jones: And those are always such informative times to look at all of that work and see still holds up and what that you could go, “Okay, I love this. This is a cute image. It’s a beautiful wallet. But this could maybe go somewhere else or we could pull this out of a frame, put it in an album.” But what is never coming off the wall? Regardless of fashion, clothing, style, any of that, what is the thing that holds the… And to me, tell me if you think this is true, you would say it’s a storytelling image. And I would say it’s like there’s something weird or it’s a real moment. Even if it’s not technically perfect.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so, that mom, I said, “Point out which ones mean the most to you.” And she didn’t even hesitate. She’s like, “This one and this was what was happening. this one because this was what was happening. This one because this is what…” And then she’d say, “I love this one. I love this one.” But she had four or five that were just core.
Tim Walden: Allison, that’s so true. I couldn’t agree with you more. And part of what frustrates me is because I am a bit of the type… I’m a little bit CDO. It’s OCD, but in alphabetical order.
Allison Tyler Jones: Wait, what? Say it again.
Tim Walden: Yeah. If you’re OCD, I’m CDO. That way, I have in alphabetical order.
Allison Tyler Jones: CDO-
Tim Walden: Yeah. This is my…
Allison Tyler Jones: Compulsive disorder obsessive.
Tim Walden: Yeah. Right. Yeah. It’s part of my…
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, I got it. Okay. It takes me a minute. Yeah. Got that right.
Tim Walden: Okay. But anyway, so I want everything perfect. What I do with our storytelling relationship work is one of the hardest things I do. Because what you said is so absolutely true, and that is that without the moment, it’s just an exercise in futility. It’s like, okay, look at that exposure. Look at that ratio. Look at that detail in the shadows. Yeah, I expect those things, but not at the cost of the moment. And I taught at the University of Kentucky. I taught photojournalism. And you would see these people that were technically excellent, but their work was inept. It had no story, but you’d see people with such a heart.
Tim Walden: And they’d create these amazing stories, but it was so poorly done where you’re like, “I can’t look at this.” It’s like, “I’m not going to put that on my wall.” We’re always trying to balance those things, but yet, I think if you don’t have a heart and you don’t have that message rising to the top, then I don’t want it. And I think that’s what a mom goes to, but you as an artist, not you, but that are listening, photographers, you can’t use that as an excuse not to be excellent. So you if you can’t be excellent and let that to be an excuse of why you’re going to succeed because you’re not telling anybody’s story. There’s no meaning. There’s no heart behind it. You got to have both.
Tim Walden: And so, Bev and I was training a couple… I’ve had a couple photographers work for me. And she’d always say, “You’ve got to figure out how to tell them when to push the button.” And I always came up with this analogy. I’m sorry if you’ve heard it, but I’ll share it, it’s appropriate at the time. I’ll say, “What do I do when I see things happening? I capture it, period. I don’t fix anything. I capture it. I adjust the biggest problem, and then I refine it. Capture, adjust, refine. If the magic remains by the time I get to refinement, then capture and adjust go in the trash. But if not, capture takes precedence.” This is why the styles making the decisions like what they’re wearing, is because I need forgiveness.
Tim Walden: The lighting, I need forgiveness. No excuses, but forgiveness. And when I critique, I do so much coaching, I critique. I’m like, “I would probably do the same thing you just showed me, but here’s what I would look to fix. I’m less concerned that you got it right. I’m more concerned, do you know what right is?” That’s really what concerns me. When I’m working with a photographer, “I’m not going to hold you accountable for making a mistake because there’s a magic in this image, but I will hold you accountable if you don’t know what the next step to perfect it is. Because if you can then make that adjustment and the magic still be there, the moment still be there, then yeah, do that.”
Tim Walden: Now, I might get away with that a little bit more than you because I don’t have them moving and dancing as much or different things that you do. So I can get away with it. But if I start losing something in the eyes, if I start losing the magic, I throw away the adjust and the refine images. I keep the capture one.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. No, for sure. For sure.
Tim Walden: That is where my frustration is, is I want perfection on both ends. I want perfect technical imagery and I want perfect emotion. But if there is one that trumps the other, it is…
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s emotion.
Tim Walden: It’s emotion
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, or story. Yeah.
Tim Walden: If I can’t tell your story, I don’t care. So I start putting together little pieces that allow me that. That’s where that initial conversation we had of forgiveness, “How do I get some forgiveness, so that both sides of me, those two voices, the left shoulder, the right shoulder, talking in my ear, how do I keep them both happy, and I do the best I can and I make quality decisions? But I want to sit down…” When we talked about sales, and I want to say, “Allison, you remember the story you told me? That’s what I see in this image. This is this is your primary piece. And then these secondary pieces are going to tell this story.” So I’m using your words back to you.
Tim Walden: And I’ll also tell you that years ago, much younger, we had a lot of exhibits in the mall that used to be a big part of our marketing. Not anymore, but we had exhibits everywhere. And I always put up this work that just flex my muscle, just show you how good I was at lighting and posing. Because it’s in the mall. I never know, maybe Allison will come in town and go shopping. I want her to see Walden’s work at its best. I don’t want to miss that mark. I got to impress Allison. Well, I’m impressing the wrong person. When we started changing that and we began to work with our relationship work and it was images that speak, telling people stories, I started putting work out.
Tim Walden: And I was a little nervous because it’s like, wow, the hand’s not just right. You know what happened? People were driven to it. Our phone started ringing. They understood. And then we started putting the stories with that work. And then we would have our marketing pieces, would be that art with that person’s story and a single piece. They pulled out, they’d read the story, they’d look at the piece. They’d take it home. All of a sudden, we got busy. Then I didn’t care as much if you came to town. Well, that’s not the best lighting one.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. I think it’s two ideas that are intention, but you have to keep the tug of war going. And that is that every portrait photographer, I think comes to the realization at some point that you can get away with having less than great work because the people that are coming to you to capture their children or their family are so in love with those people that that gives you a lot of grace.
Allison Tyler Jones: So that’s why we were able to even learn photography and become better because you had mothers that were like, “Yeah, maybe it’s not perfectly lit, but I love that baby so much.” But you can stay stuck there if it’s just a pretty image of a child. I just like to always try to raise the bar on myself. And in my consultations, I always will tell my clients, I let them know, “This is what I want to do. I’m trying to reach a bar here. I want to create art that happens to be your family. And we might get there. We don’t always, but that’s always the goal.”
Tim Walden: Absolutely.
Allison Tyler Jones: When you say turn the lights off. Mine is, when somebody walks in that house, I want them to mistake that image… like, “Where did you get…” “Oh, my gosh. That’s your kid.” But the first thing was that it was elevated, that it was something beyond just a cute family portrait.
Tim Walden: That stuff’s hard for me to talk about it. I get a little nervous even talking about it, knowing it’s going to go out and people in the industry hear it because I don’t want any excuses. My father used to say, “You can come to me with anything, but an excuse, I don’t want to hear it.” So I’m always wanting perfection.
Tim Walden: And so, this is hard for me. And if you look at our color work, it’s very classic. We segregate our art forms, as you know, black and white relationship work, color study. If you look at a color study, it’s very different. It’s like a glimpse in the mirror right before somebody leaves the house, their hair, their clothing. All of those pieces are there, and I get to flex my technical muscle. And it’s not about so much your story. It’s about, this is the woman I married. This is the man I married. Look how handsome, look how beautiful. That kind of celebration. I love that. That really lines up with me and it does give me a way to get people back through the door, but the relationship work is story-driven.
Tim Walden: And so, for somebody like me, it’s hard. And it’s hard to sit here and say that. I know so many people listening to this, that please don’t misunderstand, but I just think you can’t have impotent work. It has to have power and it has to have story to it. And then don’t allow yourself to not learn, grow, and be excellent. And then when I nail it, that’s the one I show everybody. That’s the one where you’ll see somewhere, it’s like, “See, you got from capture, adjust all the way to refine, and it’s still magical. Okay, that’s good.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. It’s funny too because I think our clients can see it without recognizing that they can see it. So I have a client who has four kids, darling, been photographing them for a long time. And her husband is incredibly East Coast. He’s something the third, just this very tucked in belted kind of guy, like Vineyard Vines. And he every year just wants the plaid, the Christmas plaid, the face forward, very traditional, this. And so, that’s great. I’ll do that. But I also know those kids have these great personalities and they’re so fun. And so, I’ll get what I want out of it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, everything that they’ve bought over the years has been the normal, just very traditional, straightforward, like what you would call a study basically of the family. But the mom, I talked to her recently and she said, “Those images that you showed me that we didn’t buy are in my head forever and I want to come back and do a wall of those.” She goes, “I just remember there’s one of the girls running away, holding hands. There’s one of this, there’s one of that.” Just different things. And so, it’s interesting how… I don’t even know what I’m trying to say.
Allison Tyler Jones: I just think people recognize it. Even though they are in love with their kids, they recognize good lighting without recognizing that it’s good lighting. They recognize excellent technique, but they also recognize the soul of their children or that personality.
Tim Walden: Here’s my thought on the recognizing quality is, I think the lack of mediocrity, when you have the quality, it makes the photography invisible. So technical excellence allows the photography to be invisible and the story to rise to the top. That’s why you want to be technically excellent, because I think what they do recognize, is poor photography, and that’s where you got to be careful. So you say, well, people don’t see it. But I think the fact that they don’t see it means they’re seeing it. They’re seeing the excellence because all they see is the people they care about. They’re not like, “What’s that? How come it’s not in focus?” Or, “Well, that color is weird.”
Tim Walden: So your mediocrity and being less than where you need to be technically, it dilutes the story and it elevates the photography as the issue. Whereas when you’re technically excellent, it dilutes the photography and it allows the story to rise to the top. The photograph just becomes the vessel or the vehicle that carries it. That’s why you look at movies, you go to some of the great movie makers. Maybe you and I or some people in our industry might, but you’re so in the moment, you’re so in the story. You’re either laughing or you’re crying or you’re shaking, nervous, whatever.
Tim Walden: Because what they did became invisible. Because it was done so well, you were so in that moment. And I think therein lies that why we need to be technically excellent, is you need to make your photography totally invisible. Then whatever your style is, whatever the story is, that’s what they see. And so, yeah, a lot of people don’t walk in my studio and go, “Wow, that’s beautifully lit,” or whatever. But if they walk in and go, “Yeah, there’s something about that I don’t care about,” then it’s probably me falling short somewhere there. And so, that’s where they’re going to see it, I think through Allison, I really do.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. Okay. So let’s wrap up with the sales part of it. So in what you call your design appointment, what I call a consultation, we’re getting their stories, what they love, what they want to see. Basically filling out the script or what Catherine [inaudible 00:49:13] would call the creative agenda, for the session itself. So you have an idea of like, okay, the dad and the boy is really important. It’s the dad’s eyes, whatever, that sort of thing.
Allison Tyler Jones: Then you’re capturing that, and also watching for those stories to illustrate themselves in front of you, so that you can capture that and maybe direct it even. In my case for sure, there would be a lot of directing. So now, we’re sitting in that appointment and you’re showing them what it is that you want them to see. And also saying, “Remember when you told me the story about this?” So what then is the client, in your experience, the client reaction to that in that they become their own salesperson?
Allison Tyler Jones: What is their reaction to you saying, “Remember when you told me the story about your boy’s eyes,” or whatever? What are some of the experiences you’ve had with that that you see that they are selling themselves?
Tim Walden: I guess you would expect me to say it, I bet we see a lot of tears. We really do. And tears of joy or just tears of the depth of that story told. All of those things play in. And I think too, I’m asking them questions. A friend of ours is an attorney. She said, “Always ask questions, but you should always know the answer to those questions. Don’t ever ask a question you don’t know the answer to. You could be in trouble.” So that’s where I’ll say, “Do you remember what you said about your son? Don’t you see that in this particular image?” “Oh, yes, I do.” “This image tells me the very story you told me. That’s why this needs to be our primary piece or our featured piece in your home.”
Tim Walden: Or a lot of times too, where this really can play out even better, Allison, is that we tell stories a lot of times in multiple images, and I know you do too, but our goal with our relationship work is rarely a single portrait on the wall. It’s usually a grouping. And then what do we do? We create, and a lot of people know this, but I’m sorry, but I’ll say it anyway, an anchor or establishing portrait. And then our abbreviations and abbreviations feature the stories within the family.
Tim Walden: So we might anchor that grouping with the family. And then the abbreviations are the pieces that I’ll say, “You remember what you said about Joy. You remember what you told me about Sally? I see that. That’s why these images, what they do is they had depth and texture, they have roundness to your story. Without those, your story is only told in my mind, in less depth and dimension than it should be. Because I not only want to tell your story of your family, I want to tell you each child’s story.” And I’ll tell them, I say, “Now, what I want to do is I want to take your money. You’re going to pay for it, and it’s their portrait.” So we go back to that. It’s like, “This portrait is just going to be on your wall for a certain amount of time. This is theirs.”
Tim Walden: And so, I can’t tell your story, Allison, as a group as well in one image as I can if I isolate and pull out… each of those portraits are like a chapter in that story. So that’s what we want to do. And that really started back when we were doing all hand printed black and white. I couldn’t print anything larger than a 20-inch square print. It’s the largest I could go. So it’s like all of a sudden, I’m going to my dark room, fine art black and white printing. Now, I can’t sell anything over a 20 by 20. Bad at it a little bit, but that’s all I could do. I taught photojournalism at UK. So I’m like, “Well, yeah, you tell stories with multiple images.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Like a photo essay.
Tim Walden: “… you’re telling that.” So that weighed in. So I learned each of those stories. And then I bring each of those stories back into play, this is Susie, this is Sally. This image of Paul, I see that here. And then we provide ways that they’re going to be able to gift and serve those children at some point to start their legacy. And a lot of our selection appointments are talking about the story, talking about the family, and talking about the result as time goes by, and then how they’re going to use it. What’s going to happen when people come in their home? You’ll rarely hear me talking about a map board, a frame. If somebody asks, I don’t hide it. And I might actually plug it in. Usually if I plug it in, it’s like, “By the way, each of these are hand-printed pieces, which is important.”
Tim Walden: And I’ll tell a client, I’ll say, “Listen to me all the way through, or this will sound wrong because I’ll sound arrogant, but listen to me all the way through. There’s absolutely no better printer than me of what I’ve captured because I have the vision for it. So whether I’m actually printing it or it’s under my supervision, I’m making those decisions and I’m the right person to make those.” So I’ve had that conversation if there’s a real left brainer in the room. But most of the time, bringing those things up is just a distraction.
Tim Walden: Because you only want to answer those questions, but you don’t want to offer that information because you’re selling that experience and you’re selling that story.
Allison Tyler Jones: It can confuse the issue and it brings up more decisions than most people want to make. But you are going to still get that 2% that really want to get into the weeds on something. And that’s fine, and then you have the expertise to do that. But I think so often, how I see a lot of people sell, is they sell as though they’re selling to that 2%. That’s everybody. That everybody wants to know all the different options for mats and sizes and frames. And it’s like, I’m not a frame shop.
Tim Walden: Why do you have that many choices? It’s like not only do you have to explain it, why do you have three crazy textures? We have linen, we have the bumpy one or we have flat. It’s like, who cares? It’s like just make a decision. Provide your art in the best way that it can be. And the question I ask people when I’m teaching sales is, I’ll say, “Don’t say it out loud, but in your mind, answer this question, how much time in a sales appointment do you spend experiencing versus explaining? If it’s 50/50, you’re doing it wrong in my mind. If it’s 75/25, you’re doing it wrong. It needs to be 95% experience, 5% explanation. And then you have to pull the explanation out, like pulling my teeth. It’s like, if you need it, I’ll give it to you.
Tim Walden: But I’m not going to sit in there and start telling… Again, it’s a Mercedes dealer bringing the mechanic out, talking about spark plugs and air filters. Like, no, I want to sit in that car. I want that experience. That’s what I’m selling. When I go to a home as a realtor and I pull up, I’m a successful individual. Or when my family, they ride in comfort or they ride in safety, whatever it might be, those are the things that I sell. I think Subaru does that amazing when they hand that key to that little girl. She gets in. I just think about that so… I’m like, that’s the result of what they sell. They’re not showing me the paint has an extra coat of something on it.
Tim Walden: So I think that’s what we have to do. And then we have to simplify our pricing and our product offerings. I work on my product a lot, but usually it’s eliminating something. I get down to where it’s just like, oh, here’s the three things I do. And it’s like, I could get down to like that, which we’re close.
Allison Tyler Jones: But that also helps your client be the salesperson because they don’t have to figure stuff out.
Tim Walden: Yeah, right. I remember a gentleman telling me, he said, “If you ask people to be an expert at something they’re not an expert in, instead of telling you they’re not qualified, they fall back on their life’s experiences and answer your question. So which texture do you like? When you ask that question to somebody, you told them they need to know. So they go, “Well, I don’t know. Let me see now. This one is what?” My God, we’re not selling the result of our art anymore, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Tim Walden: We’re selling function. So you choose and just make it that. Just make it whatever that is.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And they will love it
Tim Walden: And they will love it. And you’ll make the right choice. You’re qualified to do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, so true. I love it. Once again, pearls of wisdom and so many good things. So many greatest hits, concepts, but also new ways to look at it. I do love the idea of that longevity and transcending over time. Are we chasing trend? I really could see that as another episode of, how do you shoot for the longterm?
Tim Walden: I know we’re wrapping it up, but I also think too, that we’re at a time where the qualities that you and I created when we began and were so important to us, now they’re the unique side of things. I tell everybody like, “Everybody’s going out and they’re doing all this thing. Just turn around, run the opposite way, what was old is new.”
Tim Walden: And so, I’m seeing this huge resurgence back to beautiful studio work with the qualities and the simplicity, and it’s not what’s being done out there by so many. So I really feel like it’s a wonderful time and I’m feeling like good things are happening for those who will focus on what’s important for the people they portray.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I think that’s perennial. I think that no matter what the economy is, no matter where we are in the world, is that if you can do that, you are going to be successful in any time, any town, is focusing on what’s important to your client and letting them sell it.
Tim Walden: You do it beautifully too. And I’m jealous of all those folks out there that study with you, Allison.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, gosh.
Tim Walden: I am. You bring so much to our industry. So I conclude by saying thank you for that. Thank you for being my friend, and thank you for being so amazing at helping so many people.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, right back at you. I stand on your shoulders because you taught me so much. You and Bob both taught me so much. So thank you. I appreciate being here today. I know that you’re busy and I just appreciate your time and sharing your expertise with us.
Tim Walden: An honor always.
Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram @do.the.rework.
