Recorded: Welcome to The Rework with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She’ll challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do The Rework.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The Rework. So many of us are constantly thinking of ways that we can improve our service, improve our experience, improve our product for our clients, how we can add more and more and more and more. But that’s not always the best thing. Sometimes less is better, sometimes less is more.
Allison Tyler Jones: And today’s guest is Nicole Gates from Texas. Nicole is a portrait photographer who is a former FBI agent, which is so fascinating to me, and you’ll hear throughout our conversation how fascinating that is to me. But Nicole is smart, bright, not afraid of confrontation, right? I mean, obviously this woman has been an FBI agent. She has worked with gang members, criminals. I mean, she has a lot of experience.
Allison Tyler Jones: However, when it comes to starting her own business and selling her own artwork, she really fell into the trap of more is more, and had that crisis of confidence that so many of us suffer, which is, oh my gosh, I’ve just got to give more away. I’ve got to show more. I’ve got to do more. Where, very often, what that ends up doing is overwhelming our clients, making them feel like they can’t decide, and then really nobody gets what they want. So listen in our conversation, about how she is going from more is more to less, but better, I think you’re really going to enjoy it. Let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: All right. Well, not long ago, this summer to be precise, when we launched the Art of Selling Art course, a student came into our world by the name of Nicole Gates. And I’ve never met anybody quite like her before because not only is she a photographer, an amazing photographer at that, but her former job as an FBI agent has given her a unique take on the entire photographic world, and I cannot wait for you to meet her. So I would like you to welcome to the podcast studio, Mrs. Nicole Gates.
Nicole Gates: Hi, it’s so great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that you’re here. So tell our listeners about your business, where you’re located, what you’ve been doing, where you’re headed. Give us the rundown on Nicole.
Nicole Gates: Sure. Well, I always start out with my age, because I think I talk to a lot of women my age. I’m 55. I actually opened my business when I turned 50 after retiring from my career with the FBI, and it was something I had worked towards on the weekends a lot. And of course, there was a lot of fear involved with starting a business when you’re old, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Or you think you’re old,
Nicole Gates: Or you think you’re old.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Nicole Gates: Yeah. So I’ve been in business for about five years, and it’s been so much learning, and I’m just wading through all the information that I’ve gotten in the last five years as I’m trying to figure out how to run this business. Because I’m new. You don’t know what’s going to work for you until you try it. And that’s kind of been my biggest lesson. I think that the biggest challenge that I had was that I needed to learn how to do everything.
Nicole Gates: It wasn’t just learning how to run a business, but it was also knowing how to be a good photographer, and then how to fix your website and how to market, and how to sell what you’re selling and how to pose and how to light. So I was kind of drinking from the fire hose, taking everything in all at once. And so of course, sometimes you let one thing slide because you’re focusing on something else. So it’s been kind of an up and down roller coaster of learning and emotions and all kinds of things.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I love it, but you have accomplished so much in five short years. I mean, you really have a thriving business. You have this amazing studio. You have an amazing clientele. People love you. You’re known in your area. Where are you located?
Nicole Gates: I am in a small town on the southern border of Texas. It’s called McAllen, Texas. I am literally 15 minutes from the border, and we are, people sometimes in Houston will tell you they live in south Texas, and we all have a good chuckle. We are a good five hours south of Houston.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, that’s funny.
Nicole Gates: Yeah. But yeah, so I am what’s considered a small town over a hundred thousand population, but I am part of a kind of big metroplex that spans several miles. So I think we have, I don’t even know. I should have looked this up, 800,000 people in the area.
Allison Tyler Jones: So a good population to draw from.
Nicole Gates: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And what has been your specialty, what did you start with, and kind of give us an idea about that, about your business.
Nicole Gates: Yeah. I started with when I had my second child when I turned 42. So I was a late mom, and I thought I was going to be a newborn photographer because I had a newborn, and I was home on bed rest, and I thought, oh, this is what I’m going to do. After a while, I kind of came across other genres and I decided I was going to be, I hate to use the word, but a glamour portrait photographer, and that I was going to specialize in photographing women. Of course, I decided that after I bought a thousand blankets and baby props and things.
Allison Tyler Jones: As one does.
Nicole Gates: Right?
Allison Tyler Jones: As one does.
Nicole Gates: So I have a little bit of everything. But, yeah, I kind of came across this genre, and I was so drawn to it because in my prior job, I really had to tap into a lot of masculine energy to kind of survive. Women are hired for a reason because we bring something different to the table, but I still, it’s a tough job. It’s very stressful. And I worked around men most of the time. There’s not as many females who are special agents.
Nicole Gates: So there were a lot of women that I was surrounded with, amazing women who were more in professional support positions. So when I did this, I was so drawn to helping women kind of get a little bit more courage and to see themselves in a better light and to take up space, and to just not shy away from being exposed, to use that word, because I just often saw a lot of women that were so quiet and meek or in the background. And then that compared with my age, we all start feeling like we are not being seen, that we disappear, we become the roles that we serve. We’re chef, we’re bus driver, we are planner, we, grocery shopper. We do all those things. And then we kind of realize at one age, who am I and who am I supposed to be and what do I want to be when I grow up? And even when you’re 50, you still think about what you want to be when you grow up.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. Totally. So tell me about when you’re working with the FBI, just in that male environment, how do you feel, like… Because obviously you had to be an agent to do what you did, you had to take up space, you had to do your job, right?
Nicole Gates: Oh, absolutely.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And so how did you do that? And then how did you doing that help you with your clients? I don’t know if that’s even a good question. Do you kind of know what I’m getting at there?
Nicole Gates: Well, I’ve never been shy. I think you can’t be shy when you do that job, because what I primarily did was talk to strangers and get them to trust me and to tell me their life secrets. And so a lot of that translated over in this job because there’s a lot of trust that needs to happen between someone who decides to be photographed by you. Are they going to make-
Allison Tyler Jones: They’re putting themselves in your hands in both cases, right? They’re trusting that you’re not going to exploit them.
Nicole Gates: Right, and take good care of them, and that you’re doing this for the right reasons. And so, yeah, there’s a lot of parallels in the conversations that I have with people, and a lot of that is just listening because people just want to be seen. They want to be heard. It is tapping into our ego and the need to be more important and to be admired. So there is some of that in photography. But also I think the biggest thing and the biggest lesson that I learned was just to be a good listener, and to let people be themselves, and to just trust that I’m not going to do anything that they won’t like.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, with this particular genre, are there specific… Because it’s not a genre that I’m familiar with, that I don’t photograph in that way myself. Are there certain things that you’re looking for? Do you feel like there’s kind people fit into categories or there’s certain, not neuroses, but insecurities or whatever that you’re kind of looking for and that, you know, can help guide them through that and help them navigate that, to be in front of the camera?
Nicole Gates: Oh, yeah. I mean, I want every woman to be a badass. I think every woman has it in them. They just don’t know how. When I talk about taking up space, when you are an assertive woman, then you can be described as being aggressive. Or if you’re not smiling at everybody. So I don’t care. I love photos when women look like they’re about to kick your butt and they’re not smiling.
Nicole Gates: They have something to say, and it doesn’t always come with a smile. So for me, it’s just fun to let women be a little bit more, just to be a little bit more brave. I really love to create these iconic portraits where people just look like they could be on the cover of a magazine, but where it could be a big giant piece of wall art in their home so that they can be reminded how great they are. I get such a kick out of seeing this light go off when it happens, and it always happens in the middle of a session. A woman all of a sudden feels something, she feels beautiful, or she feels like I can do this, or yeah, this is me, and I didn’t know she was in me kind of thing.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, and that’s a direct relation to you. I mean, that’s a compliment to you because you see it in them, you know it’s there. Well, you have faith that it’s there, right?
Nicole Gates: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then you help them believe in themselves, and believe that it’s possible, which is amazing.
Nicole Gates: Yes. It’s really, it’s just so fun.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re not just standing there with a camera saying, okay, well, what do you want to do?
Nicole Gates: Right? I do work with my clients, and I do want them to tell me how they would like to be seen and photographed, and I always kind of pick that apart and see what it is that they’re really asking for. Sometimes women don’t know what it is they want or what they’re drawn to. So a lot of times that just comes out during the shoot, and they get more brave. And I’m not talking about taking-clothes-off brave. I am talking about just there’s a change in the expression when a woman just feels confident and not-
Allison Tyler Jones: Letting themselves be seen or actually engaging the camera with their gaze.
Nicole Gates: And they’re not afraid of doing something silly or stupid or being laughed at. And I think that’s creating a safe space for them to kind of feel like they have nothing to worry about. It’s great. It’s what we all just love doing here.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. So you’ve done that. You’ve done doing the woman thing, but you’re dipping toes into new waters.
Nicole Gates: Yes, I am. I swore up and down that I was never going to do boudoir work because I thought, ew, it’s so Uncle Bob in the basement with his camera, and I saw a lot of work out there that I just did not care for, and it wasn’t elegant, it wasn’t classy. And then I realized that I was kind of doing some boudoir work, just by what she was wearing, or… I don’t believe in come hither expressions or anything like that. I still wanted it to be something you could show your kids, and they would go, wow, mom, you look awesome.
Nicole Gates: So yeah, I swore I would never do boudoir, and then I found myself doing boudoir. And so that was a scary step for me because I just didn’t know if I could do that or not. Now I’m doing a lot of boudoir work, and women that you just go, no way. I’ve got librarians that are coming in for boudoir work, and I just love it because I’ve got something there. So I’ve gotten comfortable doing that, and I’ve built that into my business.
Nicole Gates: And then I started realizing that I was missing out on something. So I would invite these women to bring in their families. And then I would get these kids in here who just had as much personality as their moms, and then I would have the reluctant husbands coming in, and I loved joking around with them. So then I could tap back into me hanging out with guys and make them feel comfortable.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Dude, you got street cred, like no street cred. It’s next level.
Nicole Gates: Yeah, it’s been fun. And then I was doing these crazy shoots, and I’m sure we’ll talk about that, but I would do a woman in four different outfits, and then we would do three boudoir looks, and then the family would come in at the end and I would shoot everything in one day. And I’m enjoying all of it, but of course, I’m just exhausted. So I’ve decided that I’m going to now separate those genres a little bit and spread it out a little bit so that I can focus more on what I’m doing with each of those genres. So yeah, bringing in kids and families has been just such a blast, because I’m meeting the neatest people.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and it’s so obvious that you enjoy it because the work shows it, the expressions and the personality and everything. And I think that, again, you’re newish. Five years is nothing to sneeze at. You have experience, but you’re newish. But you tried one way of like, okay, let’s try to pile all this on together and do everything in one big, huge, long day shoot. And that ended up being exhausting for you and for your clients, worked in some cases, not in others. And so now you’re evolving and pulling those genres out separately to make each one separate.
Nicole Gates: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And these are changes that I’ve made, kind of recently in the last six months. And I got a wake-up call when, and I guess I need to talk a little bit about my imposter syndrome. So here I was, I was a retired FBI agent, which to some people that’s pretty cool. And then here I am nervous around other photographers feeling so less than, and so exposed, and so just not good enough. I’m not good enough.
Nicole Gates: So a lot of what I did when I started my business was to make up for the fact that I might not be good enough. So that’s why I tried to pile on everything and do everything, and make the experience so big that they might not see that I was not as good of a photographer as I wanted to be. And that’s kind of where that came from. So I was doing all the things to make sure that I could sell. If they wore 15 outfits, they might at least one or two pictures per outfit, which means I could get an album. And so I was exhausted. Exhausted. And so now, I think I’ve gotten to the point where I’m good enough where I can fill an album with just one outfit. I can do this. So I don’t have to shoot 15 looks.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And I love, I’ve loved watching this transformation for you because I think it’s like you saying, you see these clients come in and you see it in them, but they don’t see it in themselves. And I absolutely feel that way about you when you came into our community. I’m like, oh, this girl doesn’t see herself. She does not see how great she is.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m one of those people that thinks the ex-FBI thing is very cool, but not just because it’s ex-FBI. Think every one of my students, I think we all have some little thing that’s cool about us, and it might be a past career, and you have things that are cool about you that have nothing to do with the FBI, right, that are to do with your level of compassion, have to do with your smarts, have to do with your male energy, whatever.
Allison Tyler Jones: But we all have that little cocktail of something that’s just us that nobody else has. It’s our little secret sauce. And we can throw that away and diminish that and push that down and deny it for our whole entire life and never step into that. And that is a tragedy.
Nicole Gates: It is.
Allison Tyler Jones: When somebody steps into that and is like, okay, I might be a total goofy nerd about this thing, or this might be kind of embarrassing, but I totally love this. You attract all the other people that love those things too.
Nicole Gates: Yes, absolutely.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right?
Nicole Gates: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then you just get to go to work and have fun with people that you love and that love you.
Nicole Gates: Yes. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s the best.
Nicole Gates: That has been the biggest benefit of this new career is, I used to meet the not so great people. Obviously people I worked with were amazing, but you come in contact with people that are not the top of your society.
Allison Tyler Jones: Law abiding citizens.
Nicole Gates: Right. And now I am meeting the most incredible people, and I’m thinking, I have lived here for how long, and I never knew people like you existed down here. So it’s even changed the way that I look at my town. It’s changed the way that I look at the people that live here, because I have just had some just absolutely incredibly smart and courageous and beautiful women come in here, and they’re doing big things, but they’re doing them quietly. Or they haven’t done the thing yet, but they’re getting ready to. It’s just been incredible to get them to come here and to see that.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s so cool. Well, and I remember when we first started talking, you said, I love being in a career where somebody’s happy to see me coming, because in your previous career, nobody was happy to see you coming.
Nicole Gates: Oh, no. It was funny. I would go to events where, with my kids, and everybody was just always just slightly uncomfortable around me. I’m not the one that you’re going to invite to your raging party, because she can’t see what we do at home. So people kind of stayed away. And it can be kind of lonely when people just, they like you and they’re nice to you, but you’re never going to be invited to the wreath making club or the salsa party with the husbands.
Allison Tyler Jones: Nicole, if I had a salsa party or a wreath making club and you were still an FBI agent, you would’ve been on the top of my list. I would need to hear about all of those stories.
Nicole Gates: Well, I will come, I will definitely come.
Allison Tyler Jones: I would need to hear about all those bank robbers.
Nicole Gates: But yeah, so that’s been just so much fun to see a different side of people, so…
Allison Tyler Jones: A humanity.
Nicole Gates: Yeah. So I’m learning about people too. When I thought knew at all about what people were like, somebody used to tell me, I had a boss who would say, when you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans. And it’s just been incredible. So…
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, I think you’ve done such amazing things. So what are some of the things that you’ve put into place in your business, some specific things that you think maybe might be helpful for our listeners that then maybe if they’re at a similar place in their career as you are, that you feel like have been game changers or things that could help them with, whether it’s overcoming the imposter syndrome, or anything else that you feel like you’ve gleaned that has helped you recently?
Nicole Gates: I’ve learned so many things. Where to start? Well, I think the most important thing is to just not worry about what anybody thinks of you. And what I’ve learned through your classes is that I need to just slow down and I need to simplify things, because I was trying to be everything to everyone all the time. And then you become nothing because you’ve done everything and everything in one go, and then people are exhausted and then they don’t come back.
Nicole Gates: So one of the main lessons that I learned from you was, are you a photographer that has one and done clients, or are you a photographer that is building relationships that will last and we’ll bring them back to you? When you were talking about that, I remembered a client who has been so supportive of my business, but she’s been telling everybody, you must have this experience with Nicole. It is a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and she is doing this out of the kindness of her heart. But of course, it stung because I thought, I don’t want them just to come to me one time. I want to become their photographer.
Nicole Gates: And through your coursework, I realized it’s because I am giving them a once-in-a-lifetime experience, because I’m doing it all. I’m not leaving anything for next year. I’m not leaving anything for later.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s so interesting to me. It’s so easy to do because we’re just excited. We’re like a happy golden retriever. We just want to turn ourselves inside out and make it the most amazing thing, but it’s not necessary. And people can’t, there’s only so much good that you can absorb at a time.
Nicole Gates: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so let’s have something good for this year, and then let’s have something good for next year, or maybe good two years from now or three years from now. But it doesn’t all have to be dancing as fast as you can, please like me. And guilty, I’m raising my hand.
Nicole Gates: Oh, yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m so guilty of that in the past for sure. But I love that realization of listening to what clients are saying about you, and that most people would say, okay, if a client is saying about you, this is the most amazing thing. You’ve got to go to her. It’s a once in a lifetime experience. You would think, wow, she’s bragging about me, but you’re realizing, wait a minute, this is not the message that I want out there.
Nicole Gates: But I did it to myself. Right? It’s my fault.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, no, of course we always do. Yeah, that’s the worst part of it.
Nicole Gates: Oh yeah. But I’m definitely that photographer who says, wait, wait, wait one more. I’m going to just take one more shot, and then a hundred shots later. Well, let’s try this outfit, and then I can’t stop. I do enjoy it so much, and I need to learn to just have a plan, and that’s what you’ve laid out for us and how to build, how shoot with intention, what is the end product? And then to say, okay, we’re going to just shoot for this, and then we can focus on making this so much better because I’m not watering it down with too much of everything else.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right, because you still want to have that creativity. You still want to have like, oh, let’s try this. But if you’re getting into the flow in the jeans, right, and then you’re like, oh no, we got to do another outfit, you’re out of the flow, and then you got to get into the flow with the next outfit. So it’s like you don’t want to dumb down the creativity, but it’s just limiting the variables and keeping the creativity a little more contained. And you actually, I think it makes it better. Are you finding that?
Nicole Gates: Oh yeah. I think my work has changed seriously in the last six months. Because I am now not worried about the next outfit= when I’m shooting this outfit. I’m not worried about, oh my God, we only have three hours left and I have 15 more outfits to go.
Nicole Gates: I can now say we’re going to shoot these four outfits, and I have shot, I seriously have done 15 to 16 outfits in one shoot, but so now I’m doing four outfit changes, and then we can just slow down, and I can then experiment with my lighting a little bit more, and then I can pull out a different backdrop that I haven’t pulled out in a while. And then I can plan ahead and really work on expression and really work on creating these iconic images for these women. Or if I do a family, then I can really spend time getting them to cut up a rug and just have fun and be silly. So it’s made such a difference in how the shoots go, and for me to finish two, three hours earlier, that just feels incredible.
Allison Tyler Jones: And for them too.
Nicole Gates: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I always send a little questionnaire, a little survey at the end of my client’s shoot day. And I laughed because of the email that accompanies that questionnaire says, my clients often tell me how tired they are after their shoot. And I was saying that, ah, this is so fun. But it really isn’t. I don’t want them to be exhausted and go, oh my God, I could never do that again.
Allison Tyler Jones: Never do that again.
Nicole Gates: Right. So all the things that I was doing that I thought were good things, they were actually hurting me, and maybe not giving the client as good of an experience as I wanted them to have.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. But the fact that you were self-aware enough to recognize where it was coming from is that that’s I think the key to the whole thing. If you had just been like, okay, well, they’re complaining about it, but it’s like, okay, but why are you doing it? Why are you shooting for that long and doing that much stuff? What is the reason behind that? Well, the reason was I feel like I’m not enough. If I don’t do it, they’re not going to think it’s worth it. And it’s like, no, actually the opposite is true.
Nicole Gates: Yeah. I mean, I did not trust myself as a photographer. I didn’t think I could have the sales that I wanted with… If they only have one outfit, how many pictures does somebody want of them in one outfit? But then we are learning about selling different things and presenting the portraits in a different way.
Nicole Gates: So I came from this more is more culture that so many of us are part of, all of us women, especially doing glamour work, because we all have all learned the same things and now we’re all bad copycats of each other doing the same stuff. And we all come from this more is more culture, and it just less is more. I’m learning that less is more. It’s that way in fashion. It’s that way in home decor, it’s that way in experiences. So why not do the same here in my business? And that’s been a huge, huge light bulb.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think you make such a good point too, that there are trends and things that come through in any industry, and there’s bandwagon and then we jump on things. And there are those that just stay on the bandwagon and continually do that. But the smart, because there’s always a bandwagon, there’s always going to be a trend, and we’re all influenced by it. And so to me, the smartest, most successful photographers are ones that recognize the bandwagon. They might dip a toe on the bandwagon, they might get on the bandwagon and take a couple of ideas off the bandwagon, but then they make it their own.
Nicole Gates: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: They figure out, what of this do I love, that is uniquely Nicole Gates? What of this do I believe to my core, in my experience in my life, I am not 25. 50, you start this at 50. I think that’s such a super power. Not only should you not come in and feel less than you should feel like, I feel so sad for all these young girls that have no clue about life, relationships, careers. Think of how much we know, just the life experience that you can offer to your clients as women being photograph… But also mothers, like younger mothers.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh. I mean, it’s just amazing. And so it really is like a superpower. And if we think about it that way, then we’re not imposter syndrome. Oh, then we’re like, okay, let me cut this down and limit this now, and I’m going to give you my unadulterated, full both barrels of Nicole Gates in an hour or two hours, and it’s going to be amazing. Rather than watered down over a longer period of time just doing more and more and more, that you’re so overwhelmed and you’re so tired, you can’t even process it.
Nicole Gates: And I think that’s, for me, my age is a badge of honor. And a lot of people feel very, again, it’s that imposter syndrome that comes in. Because these twenty-year-olds and thirty-year-old photographers who are young and vibrant and energetic, and they go to all the things. And I’m like, I’m going home and putting on my pajamas.
Allison Tyler Jones: Heck yeah.
Nicole Gates: I’m not going to know functions or parties or soirees or whatever. I need to be in my pajamas and my fuzzy socks at the end of the day. But yeah, I think my age is a badge of honor. And I think when I do photograph older women who are in the same midlife, they trust me more. Someone like me tells them, no, no, no. You’re going to look amazing if you do this. But as far as that imposter syndrome goes, you don’t know who you’re going to be when you start out being a photographer. So you follow everybody else and you learn a ton. And without all those people, I wouldn’t be where I was.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.
Nicole Gates: But I’m still trying to figure out who I am. And as you pull away from some of that bandwagon stuff, when you have enough courage to pull away from that, that’s when you start figuring out what you’re all about. And that’s what sets you apart from everybody else. And that just takes time.
Allison Tyler Jones: It does.
Nicole Gates: I also have the thing, and I don’t know if other listeners who are my age, I feel like I don’t have 20 years to become this great photographer, because I’m going to be 75, right? I can’t. I’m not going to work. Then maybe I will, who knows? But I feel like I’m on a fast track plan. I got to learn faster and be faster, or better faster than the average photographer because I just don’t have all that time. So we put a lot of pressure on ourselves.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, you’re for sure doing that. And I would say to you, I think, yes, that’s true. You have maybe a shorter time in the photography career, but everything that you’ve learned up until now is in your pocket. So all of those experiences as a mother, as an FBI agent, as whatever you did before an FBI agent, all the things your entire life experience, are allowing you to hit the ground running. Now, photographic technique, okay, that’s just going to take what it takes, but your work is good. You know what you’re doing. You have beautiful work, like check, you’ve checked the box. So now it’s just nuance from here on out, and it’s figuring out the business to where the business doesn’t kill you. Because you are not 20, you cannot be doing 14-hour shoots or whatever.
Allison Tyler Jones: So it’s figuring out, okay, because I want to be in my fuzzy socks, and because I’m retired and because I want my life to be this, you had enough experience to know, okay, I don’t need to spend time trying to suck up to so-and-so. I need to figure out what do I want my life to look like? What do I want my business to look like? How do I want clients to feel? What kind of interactions do I want to have with my clients? What kind of meaning do I want to build into my business? And then that’s the ticket. That’s what you’re singing, dancing to work every day, loving what you do.
Nicole Gates: Absolutely. And I’m still struggling with that work/life balance. You open up your own business and you’ve never worked this hard in your life. I worked hard before, but now I’m working. I work 150-hour weeks. It’s ridiculous. I’m always working and everything I do all day long, and I’m still trying to find that balance of, how can I do, give an equal amount of amazing experience and product, but not kill myself in the process, because my family barely sees me.
Nicole Gates: So that is what I’m working on and making small steps that I’m learning from you, small steps to make those changes that will make me work smarter and not harder. Because yeah, I was tired. Last year I really reached a moment where I just did not think I could go on. I just thought, I’m done. I don’t have it in me anymore.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, no, I mean with good reason. But you’ve hired somebody and I think you are making steps toward that. And I think in the next year, I really do see this shaking out for you. I think you’re going to see, that even as much as you’ve cut things back, I think you’ll see that you’ll be able to cut it back even more and still be wildly creative within that less, that less is more. I think if you just keep on that path, I definitely see you getting where you need to be. Because you don’t want to end up at 75 and not have a relationship with your kids. You don’t want to like, okay, well yeah, I didn’t see my kids, but hopefully the grandkids will come around. It’s ridiculous. We all want to have the balance. But to be fair, when you’re starting something new, it imbalanced for a little while, But just don’t stay in that.
Nicole Gates: Right. And less but better is what I’m trying to be. I want to be a better photographer. I still want to learn every day. I’m still trying to figure out lighting. I’m still trying to get better at making people feel more comfortable. I don’t think I’ll ever stop learning. But now I think because I’m allowing myself to slow down, I can now focus on that because I’m not trying to do all the things all the time. So that’s been a big change for me, and I’ve spent more time with my family in the last four to six months than I have in the last five years.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, that makes me so happy. I love to hear that.
Nicole Gates: It’s been good.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love to hear that. Well, I love you sharing your wisdom and your experience. I think it’s going to be very beneficial, because one thing I know for sure is that you’re never the only one. We’ve all been through these kinds of things and somebody’s going to hear this and say it’ll spark an idea for them. So is there anything that you would like to share with our listeners about, any favorite books, any favorite resources, any favorite Netflix series that you’re totally loving right now? Anything that we can share?
Nicole Gates: Well, I’m going to be honest. I have a stack of about 10 books sitting next to my bedside, and I have read maybe two or three pages in all of them because I am dying to read all of them. And it’s something that I’m trying to do to read a little bit more. And this is my last one that you told me to get.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, Hug Your Customers. Yeah. That’s such a good one.
Nicole Gates: So I’ve been enjoying that. I’m actually reading a book and I didn’t bring it with me, but it was written by a former FBI agent who… But it is a sales book, but it’s about-
Allison Tyler Jones: Is it the Negotiate, like Never Split The Difference?
Nicole Gates: No, it’s something about being liked. I’d have to look it up.
Allison Tyler Jones: Just email it to me.
Nicole Gates: Okay.
Allison Tyler Jones: And we’ll put it in the show notes. I think coming from different, wildly different backgrounds and then coming into this industry, I think it just gives you a different way of looking at things. You’ve had to manage people in life-threatening, literally, circumstances, and you come into portrait photography and release. There’s not a lot of emergencies and portrait photography, I think we’re going to be okay. So nothing feels quite that dire. It gives you a little perspective,
Nicole Gates: Right, yeah. But as far as books, Netflix, actually, when I’m a Netflix watcher when I am editing, so it is something I haven’t been able to let go of because I do enjoy it. I know a lot of photographers who just absolutely hate editing, and they just think it’s so rote and they just don’t want to do it. And they are sick of seeing somebody’s face on the 60th image. And I just love it. I really love to retouch, and so it’s something I’m having a hard time letting go of. But I tend to watch things that I can just listen to. I watch a lot of foreign dramas and foreign action movies.
Allison Tyler Jones: Anything in particular?
Nicole Gates: Gosh, I love, I’m a fluent Spanish speaker, so I have to listen more than I watch because I’m editing. So I love Spanish dramas, Casa de Papel, which was an amazing show that I recommend.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. We’re going to link to that.
Nicole Gates: Yeah, it was really good. But yeah, so I really don’t have that much time for reading yet, but I have a pack of books that I’m ready to read.
Allison Tyler Jones: No shame. No shame. If you had something we wanted to put it in there.
Nicole Gates: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I appreciate you spending the time and taking, I know you’re, again, you’re so busy and your family needs you and to take time and to enrich our community and lift up photographers, we just want to make sure that, build this industry one great business at a time. And I can see that you’re doing that. I’m so proud of you. I think you’re amazing. Your work is beautiful. You’ve got a stellar reputation, and I just think it’s only up from here for you. So I’m really excited for you. Excited to see what you do.
Nicole Gates: Thank you, Allison. I’ve just really enjoyed it. I mean, I found my tribe, and I’m just so excited to meet someone that loves Diet Coke as much as I do.
Allison Tyler Jones: And chips and tortilla chips.
Nicole Gates: I need to work on that too.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. All right. Love it. Thank you so much.
Nicole Gates: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at DoTheRework.com and on Instagram at Do.The.Rework.
