Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little ReWork. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the ReWork.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. Today’s guest has been missing from our podcast for a little while. Jessica Mackey, Alison Tyler Jones Photography’s former client coordinator, left ATJ Photo a couple of years ago to go off into the world and get her MBA in organizational psychology. Well, we weren’t just going to let her fade off into the sunset. We were going to make sure that we got the benefit of that MBA for our ReWork listeners. Jessica is back with us today to talk about how emotional resilience can help us at work, and how we can improve our emotional resilience.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I think this is such an important topic for those of us who are tender-hearted artists who want our clients to have all the things and have an amazing experience, but sometimes we also need to be a little bit more resilient in how we’re handling our interactions with clients, how we’re creating our roles, how we’re creating our policies, but also how we are guarding our own emotional resilience so that we don’t burn out. So listen in as we explore emotional resilience at work with the newly minted MBA, Jessica Mackey.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s been a minute, but I’m really happy to welcome back Jessica Mackey, former ATJ photo client coordinator, and now newly minted master’s degree holder of organizational psychology. So welcome.
Jessica Mackey: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so you abandoned the ATJ ship in 2023 to go pursue your big dreams of your master’s degree and other things, which we love that for you, and I’m so excited. But of course, I was not going to let you abandon ship without pulling you back and making you share the gold that you gathered on the mountain of academia and bringing it back and sharing it with our ReWork listeners.
Jessica Mackey: Thank you for having me back. It feels like coming home, right? Being around the ATJ family in any way, shape or form. And it was interesting going into the world of organizational psychology and realizing how many principles I already had been exposed to working at ATJ Photo, because when you’re in the world of sales, and that’s what photographers are doing, there’s a lot of good things you learn. And I feel like you actually were my first teacher when it came to organizational psychology. You definitely taught me some principles that I think go hand in hand with everything else I learned.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Well, in your next job, after you left us at ATJ Photo, you prepared a presentation on emotional resilience for your coworkers. And so I wanted to really dig into that with you today and just talk about, it’s hard what we do. When you’re doing in-person sales, you’re trying to sell your own work, you’re really putting yourself on the line. I think in any business, you’re putting yourself out there selling something to a client, and it can feel vulnerable. It feels like rejection is hard, you feel unsure of yourself. And so I would love to know, let’s just talk about that. What are some of the principles that you learned? And maybe tie those in with things that you learned at ATJ Photo and so that we can help our listeners to be more emotionally resilient as they sell their work to their clients.
Jessica Mackey: No, I think that’s perfect. I was actually excited when the manager of one of the departments of the company I worked for approached me and asked me to do a training with her department on emotional resilience, because it is something I feel very passionate about. It doesn’t matter what field you’re in, being able to keep some emotional integrity and not fall apart when things get hard is a challenge. And so as I started delving into the topic, one of the things that kept coming to mind was a trip I had taken to Oklahoma City, and have you ever been to Oklahoma?
Allison Tyler Jones: I haven’t.
Jessica Mackey: So I was surprised that one of the things we did was we went to visit the site of the Oklahoma bombing. And one of the most powerful things for me, it’s all very powerful, but is this tree. It’s this elm tree. It’s called the survivor tree, and it’s big and it’s flourishing, but as you delve into the history of this tree, you realize there were people, it’s been there, gosh, I think since the 1920s or something, and there was a lady who walking to the parking lot from the office building. At one point, I thought, “Oh my gosh, this is such an ugly tree.” Just didn’t really appreciate this tree that was in the parking lot of the federal building and didn’t see its beauty for what it was. But after the bombing that just devastated so much area, yet this survivor tree stood.
Jessica Mackey: And it withstood the blast and it has continued to flourish. And I really feel like that is a good object lesson in emotional resilience because I think if we spend so much time focusing on one thing, I need to grow my business, I need to make money, we might grow fast, but our roots are going to be shallow. And so when rejection happens, when criticism happens, when we have clients who don’t appreciate us, we’re going to be likely to topple. That is going to destroy us. Or you’ve got the people who respond maybe by going a little bit numb. They’re almost like the stump, right? The one who feels like they’ve been cut down so much that now they respond to any kind of negative feedback with numbness. I’m just a loser. Nobody likes me. And just this negativity. And it’s like, if we really want to grow both ourselves and our businesses, we have to focus on our roots. We have to take the time to reach a little bit deeper and grow in both directions.
Allison Tyler Jones: What are the roots? What makes that up?
Jessica Mackey: So there’s different components. There’s been a lot of studies obviously on emotional resilience and emotional intelligence. It’s the new buzzword that everybody likes to talk about, especially in organizational psychology. But one of the five attributes that I really appreciate talking about emotional intelligence is self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, relationship skills, and social awareness, like developing those five-
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Say it again. So self-awareness, self-regulation.
Jessica Mackey: Motivation, relationship skills, and social awareness. As you delve into those five areas, it doesn’t just deepen your ability to be an effective business owner, an employee, whatever you are. It also fills that resilience that we’re talking about. So not just in business, but in life, being able to respond to the negative aspects, the storms, the explosions, the unexpected. We can respond with a lot more.
Allison Tyler Jones: To me, if you’re looking at a business and you’re comparing that to the survivor tree that when bad times come you’re wanting to grow, if you’re just only looking at growth, growth, growth on the top end, then your roots aren’t growing. So that’s kind of your metaphor. To me, that root is relationships. To me, that is the core, and all those things feed into that. Self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation and social awareness, to me, and tell me if I’m wrong, if I look at something happens during a sales appointment or a consultation or a session or whatever, somebody sends off, a client sends off a nasty email or whatever. If I know that at the bottom of that, I’m thinking, “Okay, I want this to be a long-term relationship, so how am I going to respond?” That’s my core, that’s my root.
Jessica Mackey: That’s your motivation. That’s that third principle.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. My motivation is that if this is going to be a long-term relationship, this is not just a one and done so I can just blow these people off. If this is long-term, how am I responding? This person is part of my family, my work family, then I’m going to respond to them differently than if I think, look, these people, I’m never going to see them again. I don’t care.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah, I need to put them in their place. They should know that they can’t treat people like this. And part of that motivation principle is also being aware of the other person’s motivation. Sometimes we have to sit with that and be like, “Wow, I just got this really nasty email. This person’s a jerk.” And maybe our first reaction is that anger or that defensiveness. But really from an emotional intelligence standpoint, you have to sit with it and be like, where are they coming from? Are they lashing out because they’re scared about the investment? Are they lashing out because they just got-
Allison Tyler Jones: They didn’t tell their husband how much it was going to be.
Jessica Mackey: Right, right, exactly. Whatever it is. And so I think that if we step back and we try to understand the other person’s motivation, it helps us to engage in a way that has empathy and respect and not to take it so personal because we can kind of distance ourselves and put a little bit of Teflon there.
Allison Tyler Jones: And when you take it personal, you’re interpreting it as like, they are attacking me. They hate me. They’re trying to hurt me. And really, they’re not even thinking about you. They’re just thinking about getting their own needs met.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah, exactly. And I think that when that happens, it’s important to almost reframe that interaction. You can look at it and be like, this is a negative, we just got into this fight, and you’re like, or it’s an experience I can learn from. They had this negative feedback. I need to learn how to respond to this. And you’re constantly evolving as a person. With every interaction, you’re learning how to engage in a way that stays positive and meaningful and doesn’t escalate. One of the things that I feel like you really taught me working with you was the idea of self-regulation. So self-awareness, of course, figuring out our own triggers, understanding ourselves, being willing to accept that we’re imperfect, that we have these weaknesses and that we have triggers. And maybe we need to be careful of those, not criticize ourselves, but be careful and mindful and try to grow those places.
Jessica Mackey: But self-regulation I think is really hard because we can let our emotions navigate our reactions. And it’s like, I remember hearing from you that when you got a client, I mean, how many times had I sat in the other room hearing you respond to a client, and that was the difference. You could react, which has that emotional component, or you could respond. And you were just so gifted at sitting back for a minute and responding. And one of my favorite techniques that you would use to avoid assumptions is you would say, “Tell me more about that,” which also gave you a chance to regulate your emotions so that you weren’t reacting from that emotional standpoint. They maybe said something that triggered you and made you feel like, what the? But instead of reacting, you would say, “Okay, tell me more about that.” And you would give yourself that time to regulate and to find out what they’re actually getting at. What is that motivation? Whereas if you had jumped from a place of defensiveness, you would never have found that out.
Allison Tyler Jones: The thing that I learned from that is that it almost is never what I thought it was. Almost never. It was never what my initial assumption was, oh, they want to cancel the order. Oh, they hate the work.
Jessica Mackey: They hate my work. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: They wish they hadn’t hired me. They’re going to talk about it about me. It’s like, no, it’s that they, whatever. Their hot water heater just broke. They’ve had to spend money on that, and now they’re worried about money. And so this is the latest purchase that they made, so they’re trying to figure out a way around it, or they didn’t really want digital files to print their own stuff. They just want to have stuff to post on social media.
Jessica Mackey: Well, and at times, I feel like it was as simple as you’re talking to them about purchasing this 40 by 60 print, which is amazing and fantastic, and they’re so excited, and you start feeling them kind of balk at the purchase and you realize it’s because they don’t trust their husband to hang it. Who’s going to put this on my wall? I can’t hang this. And so it’s funny, as you really dig into where they’re coming from, like you said, it challenges those assumptions. It’s not usually what you think. And I think that when you ask kindly, people are willing to explain themselves. If you ask defensively, then they shut down and things escalate. But you were just so good at that, “Tell me more about that,” and getting them to open up.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hard won. Hard won, because honestly, as an oldest child, and especially my first real job was in banking, and I think every employee review I ever had, any client contact I ever had, I just took everything so personally. Anytime somebody said something to me, it was just like, okay, you hate me. I just took everything to the core. And so in an to kind of forestall that, to like, okay, I can’t be yanked around every minute. This is no way to live. I’ve got to figure out a way to give some kind of a buffer between what somebody says and how I’m reacting. I am an emotional person and I am a reactive person. I tend to be a little bit drama. So I had to find a way, and that was something that really helped me.
Jessica Mackey: And I think that it helps you in relationships across the board. Talk about your relationship with your spouse even. It’s like, okay, learning how to just take a minute and not engage from a place of emotional reaction. And just tell me more about that. Why do you think we need to go to your family’s for Thanksgiving? Whatever it is-
Allison Tyler Jones: Do tell.
Jessica Mackey: Yes, exactly. But that’s one of the things that I remember happening at my most recent job is I got a message from my boss saying that he wanted to talk to me. And that kind of feels a little bit like being called into the principal’s office, which might feel similar if you have a client call or send a message just like, “I need you to call me right away.” And I remember walking to his office and I had to stop and take a breath and literally envision just dressing myself in like, Teflon-coated armor.
Jessica Mackey: There is nothing he was going to say that was going to get through the armor because I can take this. Even if he had criticized something that I had done, he’s not criticizing who I am. But then of course, I walk in there and he was congratulating me on something that he heard. I was like, oh, all that stress and that anxiety for nothing. And I think that you’re right, sometimes it’s safer or it’s smarter, it’s not just safer, to just distance ourselves a little bit from those emotions and those assumptions so that we can engage in a positive way.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. I love that. So self-awareness, self-regulation. Talk about the motivation. What is that?
Jessica Mackey: So we hit on that a little bit first when we were talking about understanding your motivation. So when you talked about what it is you want to accomplish out of this interaction, if you go in and you feel like, oh, I’ve got to protect my name, I’ve got to protect my company, I’ve got to defend, defend, defend, you’re setting yourself up for a war zone. And it’s like, no, if you know your work is good, you don’t need to defend it. Go in there with the idea of building a relationship. Listen, step back, take your pride, tuck it in your back pocket, and just listen in order to stay true to your higher motivation, which is building a good client relationship. And then on the flip side like we talked about, taking a minute to try to understand their motivation and where they’re coming from, because I think that in order to build those positive, healthy relationships with our clients, we have to connect. And we can’t connect if we’re letting that defensive barrier-
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, I think too, so often, what many of us will do, because we think, I think most people would hear me say, “The relationship is the most important thing.” And most people that listen to this podcast are just going to say, “Well, absolutely, I totally agree with that.” But a relationship, a good relationship that’s not with a bad boyfriend is going to be based on mutual respect. So a good relationship doesn’t just mean that you’re rolling over and yes, sir, yes, ma’am, and you take any kind of abuse that they’re dishing out. And if they’re being completely irrational and you’re just like, “Okay, well, you know what? You’re right. And let me give you everything for free. In fact, I’m going to discount it. I’m going to pay you to photograph you.”
Jessica Mackey: I’m just so grateful.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right, which sometimes happens. So there is this level of that mutual respect. Listening to somebody to understand them shows that you’re willing to listen to them. And then you can also have your say. You can also don’t just fold, I guess. So do you have something to say about that? Is there something in your-
Jessica Mackey: No, for sure. I think that that feeds right into relationship skills, the kind of fundamental of emotional intelligence, because it starts with that active listening, like you were saying. If you want to build that connection, if you want to build that relationship, you have to be willing to listen. And to be an effective listener means that you’ve got to be present, you’ve got to be there, but you’ve also got to be comfortable setting boundaries. Just because you’re listening, just because you’re looking for solutions doesn’t mean you’re a doormat. And so I think that it takes being able to notice when you’re feeling uncomfortable.
Jessica Mackey: If there’s situations that tend to put you in an uncomfortable place emotionally, you hate conflict, then you focus on building the skills to navigate those places more comfortably. You don’t just say, “Oh, I can’t do conflict,” and you walk away. Then you’re never going to grow and develop. You just instead say, “I can’t do conflict. I really struggle in this space, so I’m going to work on developing skills. I’m going to build those roots. I’m going to make this go deeper.” And some of that comes with learning how to say no. Like you said, just because a client asks for it doesn’t mean that you have to say yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: What I found too is that I guess we’re going to talk about, it seems like we’ve kind of just gone into a little bit of conflict resolution because you do run into that with clients. One thing that I’ve learned that Caroline, my sister and I do for each other a lot, is that when a fraught situation comes up with a client, and we’ll write an email, send it to each other and say, “Okay, read and edit.” But when we’re talking about it, I’ll always say to her, she’ll say to me, “Okay, what do you want out of this? What’s the bottom line here? What do you want?” Okay, well, I want the relationship to-
Jessica Mackey: What’s your motivation? Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. But then also, just to your point about boundaries is you have to know, okay, what am I willing to do and where am I going to stop? I’m not going to go to this point. I’m not willing to give everything free just to have a relationship with somebody. That’s not fair. It’s not mutual respect. So you kind of have to go in knowing what your boundaries are, and it helps to have rules in your business for that so that you know, okay, these are our policies, these are our procedures, this is how we work. So for us, just an example of that would be, I’m not selling printable digital files, period. So no matter how mad somebody gets about that, I’m just not doing it.
Jessica Mackey: Well, and because you know you’re not doing it and because you know that this is something people are going to ask for, I feel like you’ve worked over the years, probably through a series of trial and error to develop a response.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yes, and a consultation and then letting them know ahead of time. But even sometimes if they don’t listen, at some point, sometimes every now and then one will get through where we’ll get to the sales appointment and somebody will say, “Okay, now wait a minute, what was about that?” And I’ll be like, well, now, remember this, this, and this. And then sometimes you’ll still run into problems. But that doesn’t mean that just because somebody didn’t listen that I’m going to all of a sudden completely change this policy, but I want that relationship to be intact. I’m going to be very respectful as I reiterate that, and let them know that here’s how you can get digital files in this format or whatever.
Jessica Mackey: Right. And being aware of, again, their motivation. Because their motivation asking for the digital files, you might think is, oh, because they’re going to go print poster size-
Allison Tyler Jones: For their whole family.
Jessica Mackey: Yes, exactly. And it’s like, oh, no, they just want to be able to share them on social media. Oh, we give you social media files. And so being able to understand their motivation helps you to respond. But I think that to your point, it definitely matters to be prepared. If you’ve been in this business for more than a minute, what areas could be potential conflicts for your clients or what’s going to result in some questions? And so be ready for those. It shouldn’t just be, oh, well, I just don’t do that in some aggressive way because your clients are going to kind of flinch and they’re not going to respect that answer. So come up with an answer that really gets at the heart of why you don’t do that. It’s not just, well-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, and how it benefits them because they don’t really care how it benefits you. They care how it benefits, like why what you’re doing and how it benefits them. And for us, it’s because we are committed to it being on your wall or in an album so that you can enjoy that. And clients that don’t need that, just want a bunch of digital files, are not going to hire us. And we know that, and that’s okay. So we want people that are coming that want to have a long-term relationship. We want to build a relationship over time. We want to watch your kids grow up. We want to have a gallery in your home, and that’s what we’re doing. So if you don’t want to do that, then we don’t need to be mad at each other. We just need to not work together.
Jessica Mackey: Right. This isn’t the fit. And there’s plenty of other people there who are offering exactly what that client is looking for. And that’s okay. That doesn’t threaten you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And I think to your emotional resilience point is that what wears you out and what makes you emotionally non-resilient is that when you haven’t clearly stated what you do, then you’re constantly getting asked to do things you don’t want to do. And then you’re pissed that other people don’t realize like, well, why don’t they realize that I don’t do that? Well, you never told them, because you haven’t made it clear in your marketing. You haven’t made it clear on your website. You haven’t made it clear-
Jessica Mackey: In the consultation.
Allison Tyler Jones: … in every conversation that you’ve had with them that this is what you do. So they just think that you’re like every other photographer. And so you keep getting asked these questions and you don’t like conflict and it’s wearing you out. So if you can get out ahead of this stuff, then you really actually don’t have to even have a lot of these conversations. You can preempt it.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah, definitely. And I had a situation this last year where my parents were celebrating their 50th and we were in California, and so we were looking for a local photographer in California. And it was funny how many photographers I reached out to that I had to ask all the questions. I’m like, “Where is the information that just tells me what you do and what your package includes and what the offer is and all this kind of stuff?” And I mean, having been in the photography world for as long as I was, I knew what to ask, but it kind of got old to where I’m like, just tell me.
Allison Tyler Jones: They’re making you do their job. Yeah.
Jessica Mackey: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I think part of it is that they think, well, if I don’t come out with a firm stance, I don’t want people to go away. I want everybody to like me. It’s like the girl that just wants all the guys to like her and date her, and so she’s going to be everything to everybody. Oh, you like football? I like football too. Oh, you like pickleball? Me too. And she never really stands-
Jessica Mackey: The runaway bride. Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, she never really stands for what, nobody ever really knows who she is or what she is. But then no guy really wants that.
Jessica Mackey: No, and I think that clarity is an asset in this business. The more clear you are and the more you communicate what you are offering and your expectations and how it all works, and the more happy and content your customers are going to be because they’re not going to have questions. They’re going to know how this works because you laid it out for them.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and that goes to-
Jessica Mackey: You told me exactly what to expect.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that goes to your final point, which is awareness. Be aware of how you want to work and what you like to do and what you don’t like to do and what you hate. And so if you hate something and somebody’s called you, how many times have I heard photographers, “Okay, well, how do I bid this thing? They want me to come and photograph this building.” I’m like, do you want to photograph a building? “Well, no, but they’re going to pay me to do it.” Okay, well, but maybe you shouldn’t be doing that. Maybe you should take that mental and emotional energy and mark it for more portrait work if that’s what you love to do. Just because somebody is willing to pay you doesn’t mean that you’re good at that or that that’s what you should be doing.
Jessica Mackey: Or that that’s what you enjoy doing.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. So just being aware of the way that you like to work, and that there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with setting a boundary and saying, “This is what I’m really great at. If you want me at my best,” and who doesn’t want you at your best?
Jessica Mackey: Right. They’re paying for an expert.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. They want you to come in and photograph, for me, it’s they want me to photograph their family in the real, real, like their family being snarky, being funny, being all the personalities. They want that. And so if I am over photographing their building, then surely I’m not going to be able to have the mental and emotional energy to get their kids going.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah. Well, and then again, you are becoming the doormat, right? You’re doing what someone else is telling you to do versus saying, “This is what I do.” And that’s another thing, even with the relationship skills I feel like I saw you do so well was being assertive without aggressive. Some people think that, oh, if I’m going to communicate my boundaries or I’m going to communicate to my clients how this works, they’re going to be put off because that’s aggressive, because I’m telling them what they get. And it’s like, no, assertive is not the same thing. Assertive is, oh, yeah, I can totally see, I mean, it still has that level of compassion. I can totally see what you’re asking for, but we actually don’t offer the digital files, or whatever that thing is that you’re trying to communicate. It’s okay to be assertive.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, just let them know that, yeah, absolutely. We could do that. I did it the first 30 days I was in business, and realized that people were printing stuff at Costco. It looked like crap. And so now I take control of it because I want to make sure that it’s a hundred percent perfect. If I have to print it five times before it goes on your wall, that’s what’s going to happen. We want to make sure that everything’s perfect for you. So again, it’s not because I don’t want to sell digital files. They don’t care what I want. I do want it perfect. They do care about that.
Jessica Mackey: They do. And I think that, again, when you circle back to the idea that they are hiring an expert, they don’t know how to work a camera, most of these people. They don’t know how to do the lighting. They don’t know, otherwise they’d be doing it themselves. If they’re hiring you, they’re hiring you for your knowledge and your expertise. So when you approach that relationship with an assertive form of communication, it actually underlines the fact that you are the expert. You do know what you’re talking about. You understand where you’re coming from, but you know what’s going to look good. You know what’s going to last. You know what they’re not going to get sick of.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And you’re not bringing them into your world and wedging them into your shoes. You’re not saying, “Okay, well, okay, everything’s going to be this.” It’s like, “Okay, well, Jessica, I know that you have one boy and three girls, and based on your kid’s personalities and what we’ve talked about, here’s how your unique family and my unique skills can work together. Here’s how I think I can best serve you, and this is how we would do that.” And so that is crack. That is when you go to anybody, any service provider, so you work for an insurance company. If it’s an insurance company, let’s use that as an example. You come in and I’m like, “Okay, I have this house. I’ve got a business, I’ve got some cars. What do I do? And then I’ve got life and I guess there’s some health. What’s happening?”
Allison Tyler Jones: And so somebody sits and talks with you and is like, “You know what? It’s really cool. There’s this umbrella policy. You’re never going to have to pay for that extraneous rental car insurance because this will cover all of that kind of stuff. And this is how we do these policies.” And they just tell you how they can pull this whole thing together for you and manage it and look at it once a year and you don’t ever have to think about it again. And no matter what happens, you’re totally handled.
Allison Tyler Jones: I don’t want to know all the details of that. Our clients don’t want to know the details of how it’s framed, what it’s printed on, what kind of hanging hardware. Nobody has time for that. They want us to handle it so that they can just live their life and see beautiful pictures on the wall. And if you’re my insurance company, I want to know that if my house burns down, you’re going to replace it all. If I die, you’re going to take care of my family. If I get sick, you’re going to cover my prescription and somebody’s going to handle it.
Jessica Mackey: And you’re taken care of. And I think that that’s where those relationship skills come into play and are so effective and why it’s worth really digging down deep and developing and building those skills is because the only way to really take care of your clients is to know them. And if you are not able to have these conversations where they’re telling you about their kids and you’re getting a feel for personalities and you understand their house and what their long-term plan is for photos, whatever it is, if you’re not having those conversations and you’re not connecting, you’re not going to know how to be the expert to customize their umbrella policy.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then going back to your experience in the summer with your parents’ 50th wedding anniversary, when you’ve now called a number of photographers and you’ve had to be the one to take control because they don’t have a process and they’re just like, “Okay, well, I can show up with a camera on this date and shoot what?” And you’re like, “But yeah, but what about this and what about this and what about this?” And you’re the one that’s leading it. Then you realize, that’s why we get the calls that we get is because our industry, most photographers are not doing this.
Jessica Mackey: No, I had to send her a shot list. So what time do you want to do it? All these kind of things. I’m like, “You’re the expert. You tell me. You tell me. I told you what the dynamic is of all these different families and what we’re going for.” But I felt like, again, I was the one that was having to structure the experience.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Whereas if she knew what she was doing, she would say, “Okay, at this time of year, sunset is this. We’re going to be on the beach at this. You need to be ready to go and ready to hit the sand at this time. Bring these things with you and just have it dialed. And I’ll have this and I’ll have this and I’ll have this.”
Jessica Mackey: Here’s a mood board for some clothing options for being on the beach with 50 people. Well, 25. But it’s not that, it’s a lot to think through as the client from the client perspective. And the more that the photographer steps in and embraces that role as the expert, the more service you’re providing, the more value to that client.
Allison Tyler Jones: And the more you’re willing to pay for it too, because you don’t want to have to deal with it. But if you had to ask all the questions, do all the things, then you’re like, well, she’s not worth anymore than what I paid her, and probably worth less because I had to do everything.
Jessica Mackey: Exactly. And I think that that’s where people are afraid to be assertive. It’s reframing that idea that no, you’re actually providing value. It’s okay to be assertive because what you’re offering isn’t, it’s not like some anarchy or dictatorship where you’re in there demanding that they do something completely unreasonable. You’re actually adding value by being assertive.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And they called you.
Jessica Mackey: Yes. They already want what you have.
Allison Tyler Jones: You didn’t go to their house with your camera and yank them out of their house and say, “I’m going to take your picture.”
Jessica Mackey: Exactly. No, for sure. And I think that that’s why then with the social awareness, that last route, I think that that’s why those things go so hand in hand is because then you start to pay attention to how people are responding. As you’re reaching out, as you’re practicing being assertive, are people responding positively to that? And if not, okay, then maybe I need to rethink my approach a little bit. It’s not that what I’m offering doesn’t have value, but maybe it’s how I’m offering it, the words I’m using, the expressions on my face, my body language. All of that affects how people respond to what we’re saying. But one of the things that I took away from you that I thought was so great, and I think we’ve even discussed it on a podcast before, is your approach to end of the world versus no big deal. I’m like, that was so good. You’ve got to explain that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Steve Jobs.
Jessica Mackey: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, yeah, Steve Jobs, so when he set up Apple’s customer service and was training the customer service people, he said, “When these calls come in and something’s wrong, you can take one of two attacks. You can say it’s the end of the world, or it’s no big deal. And whichever attack you take, the customer is going to take the other.” So how that looks is somebody calls, something’s wrong with my computer. End of the world is, “This is completely unacceptable. I am so sorry. I know that you’ve spent $4,000 for an Apple computer and there should be nothing wrong with it ever. Let me get you to the person that can help you.”
Allison Tyler Jones: So that’s end of the world. And so then that allows the customer to say, “Okay, well, don’t get so upset. I know things go wrong.” Whereas if they call in and say, “Something’s gone wrong with my computer,” and you say, “Well, it’s no big deal. I mean, everybody has problems with computers. I don’t know why you’re so upset.” Then it’s like, “I am going to end your life. I want to talk to your supervisor.” You go full Karen and want to burn somebody down.
Jessica Mackey: And I think that that works. I’ve done it with my teenagers. If they come in and they’re really upset about something, maybe an interaction with a friend or a teacher, and I get all passionate like, “No way. I cannot believe they did that.” “Mom, it’s okay. It’s not a big deal. You’re not going to say anything, are you?” And all of a sudden their emotion that was way up high and super escalated just kind of deflates. And that’s-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, because you heard it.
Jessica Mackey: Yes, exactly. And so that’s the whole point is that sometimes that social awareness is realizing that maybe the person calling who is yelling and upset just needs to be heard. And so giving them that escalated reaction will actually deflate the situation versus escalating it faster. And I think that we just have to be willing to do that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. When I worked in banking, I remember many of the customer service reps that I worked with, it was a game with them to see if they could wind people up, actually. So when people would call mad, they would get more and more calm, and they would take the no big deal approach, and then the people would be swearing and then they could hang up on them in good conscience. And it was kind of funny at the time, but now I look back at that and I think, wow, that’s pretty bad actually. That’s not fulfilling the longer-term goal of that relationship.
Allison Tyler Jones: And you can diffuse so many things right at the beginning by just, when somebody’s like, “I cannot believe that this happened. Oh my gosh, I am so sorry. The frame had a nick out of it. You hung it on the wall, and there’s a nick in the frame. I am going to drive over to my framers with my gun right now. I’m going to kill him. I’m going to burn his studio down. This is it. That’s it. I’ve had it.” And then, “Okay, well, maybe don’t kill him. Maybe just let him fix the frame.”
Jessica Mackey: Right. And I think that for me, when I was your client coordinator, it was easier for me to take that escalated approach, the end of the world approach when clients would call and they were upset about something, because I am disconnected from the work essentially. It is not my portraits that they’re mad about. It is not my frame. It is not, so how, I mean, this is a question for you. How do you feel like you manage those emotions when it is your work that they’re upset about?
Allison Tyler Jones: For me, I have to distance myself from it. Just like I distance myself from it when they’re complimenting it, when they’re like, “Oh, you’re so talented. This is so amazing. How are we going to pick?” I don’t step into that. I’m like, “Oh, well, I had a lighting class and I’m a master of blah, blah, blah.” I don’t step into that. I’m like, “You know what? You’re the one that created these beautiful humans. They’re amazing. Thank you for letting me photograph them.” I can deflect some of that. I can say thank you, but I’m not drinking that Kool-Aid. And at the same time when somebody criticizes something and they’re saying, “Well, I hate this picture.” I mean, in the beginning for sure, I’d be like, oh, you’re right. The lighting was crap and I didn’t know what I was doing. But I realize now, I’ve had, in 20 years, they’re usually criticizing something about themselves or their kid. They don’t like they gained a few pounds or they had a fight with their husband on the way there. There’s something that has nothing to do with me.
Jessica Mackey: And that’s what they see.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. So I can just pause and again, go back to what you were just saying. “Well, tell me more. What is it that you’re not loving about it?” Rather than like, “Oh, I see what you mean. I don’t like that look on your kid’s face either.” And then she’s like, “No, I love that look on his face. But now that you say that, I hate that too.” It’s like, no, no, no. Shut up. Shut your mouth-
Jessica Mackey: And let them tell you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, let them tell you because what you’re seeing is not what they’re seeing.
Jessica Mackey: And I think that can be a scary thing for a lot of photographers or business owners to ask for that feedback, like tell me more, because you just jump to the assumption that they don’t like your work because it’s not Allison Tyler Jones for maybe another photographer. And you kind of spiral into this self-criticism. And that may not be it at all. Maybe they just don’t like the filter you put on it, and so ask me that tell me more.
Allison Tyler Jones: Or they hate the dress they wore and they don’t want-
Jessica Mackey: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: I mean, there’s so many things, especially if they’re women. We’re so self-critical, so it could be a lot of things, but it can trigger you. And so I think having these, let’s go through those again, having these five roots of, what did you say? Self, emotional resilience.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah, emotional resilience.
Allison Tyler Jones: So self-aware, okay, so let’s just wrap it up and recap these. So being self-aware, what’s a one sentence, something about self-aware?
Jessica Mackey: So one of my favorite quotes about self-awareness, it’s two sentences, but it’s by Adam Grant, who’s an amazing organizational psychologist. But he says, “Our emotions aren’t caused by other people’s actions. They’re shaped by our interpretation.” So I think self-awareness is being aware of the lens that we’re using to perceive other people’s actions, and-
Allison Tyler Jones: Which is good for a photographer’s lens. We’re all using different lenses, we’re not seeing the same thing.
Jessica Mackey: Right. And being able to know if maybe your lens needs to be cleaned or changed out, or if it’s distorting things a little bit and being willing to make some changes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yep. Then having tools for regulating yourself. If you are a highly emotional person, and most of us who are artists tend to be, just the tiniest bit emotional, finding some ways-
Jessica Mackey: Yeah, and avoiding those assumptions that we talked about that can be so deceptive. If we’re willing to take a minute and just say, “Tell me more about that,” allows us, it’s twofold. It gets us more information and it gives us a minute to stop and regulate our emotions before we respond.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that.
Jessica Mackey: And then motivation, we talked about how it’s just what you said. What is it you want out of this interaction? And if you don’t know, you need to spend some time figuring that out. If all you want-
Allison Tyler Jones: Don’t have it.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah. If all you want from an interaction with your client is for them to praise you and adore you and love you-
Allison Tyler Jones: And not be mad at you.
Jessica Mackey: Right. That’s like inflating a balloon with hot air. As soon as something happens and it pops, you’re just completely deflated. And it’s like, your motivation has to be deeper than that. It has to be deeper than needing other people’s praise to build up your own self-worth.
Allison Tyler Jones: So good.
Jessica Mackey: Like you said, being able to focus on that relationship and build the deeper relationship. And then you can take a minute and reflect on what their motivation is, your client, and be able to respond to that with empathy and kindness.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. And then relationship skills. So-
Jessica Mackey: Something we’re all working on, right? I think that there’s nobody-
Allison Tyler Jones: Everyday.
Jessica Mackey: … yes, that is not constantly and consistently working on relationship skills. And being able to, again, with the self-awareness, maybe see where it is that you’re struggling and where you feel uncomfortable and spending some time working on that, whether it is being assertive or communicating boundaries or learning how to say no. All of those things, practice.
Allison Tyler Jones: It all feeds into that, right?
Jessica Mackey: It does. And again, with the managing conflict, with the relationship skills, I think that nobody is born an expert in any of this. It’s just constant work and development and practice.
Allison Tyler Jones: Love that. And then the last is just awareness.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah, just being willing to pay attention.
Allison Tyler Jones: And to realize that how we see it isn’t how anybody else is seeing it necessarily. We can’t control how other people see us. Have you read that Mel Robbins most recent book, that Let Them?
Jessica Mackey: I haven’t. It’s on my list.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s good. She’s kind of pop psychology. I love her podcast. I think she’s a great talker. But there’s some good principles in there of just about like, look, if somebody’s going to be mad, let them be mad. Let them feel what they’re going to feel. You don’t have to talk somebody out of anything. If they want to go with a different photographer that does something different than you, let them, that’s fine. And then you’d say what you do and let them do what they’re going to do. And it’s fine because eventually, when somebody wants what it is that you do, they know where to get it.
Jessica Mackey: Yes. And I think along those lines too, it’s okay to give ourselves grace when we feel something like anger. I mean, I remember there was times that a client would reach out and have this outlandish request, and I could hear you practically cussing in the other office. You’re just so mad, and you know not to respond in that place, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh yeah, for sure.
Jessica Mackey: You’re going to process these emotions, you’re going to think through it. You’re not going to get that client on the phone when you’re right in the middle of that frustration and anger and maybe even resentment a little bit. It’s like, no, I need to process these emotions and then I’ll respond. And I think that sometimes that’s really hard to step back and give ourselves, again, with that self-regulation, right? Where you’ve got to just be willing to let the client wait until you’re ready to respond in a positive and effective way.
Allison Tyler Jones: For sure. And I think that we did that for each other. And with Stacey too, I think there’s very often one of us would be in a more fragile place. So a message would come through and Stacey might be the one that would be like, “Oh my gosh, can you believe that they asked this?” And then I would read it and say, “I don’t think that’s what they’re asking,” because I was in a better place, right?
Jessica Mackey: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: So sometimes-
Jessica Mackey: A different lens.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Sometimes you can’t be aware. Sometimes you need somebody else to read it and to check yourself. But when you’re the solopreneur, that’s hard. So maybe you don’t have to answer everything the second that it comes through. Be aware that you haven’t had lunch yet. You’re tired. Maybe it would be better to respond to that tomorrow.
Jessica Mackey: Right. And maybe you get that request like, “I need you to call me right away,” and you feel yourself responding or reacting emotionally to that request. It’s okay to say, “My afternoon is booked,” even if it’s not. It’s okay to give yourself some space before you engage so that you know you’re in the right head space to engage in a positive way.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and that’s true of any relationships too. In previous relationships, having the fight at midnight is not the time to have the fight. Wait until the next morning, go to bed mad.
Jessica Mackey: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s fine.
Jessica Mackey: Yeah. I love that when they say, “Don’t go to bed mad.” I’m like, I go to bed mad all the time. And not because we have dysfunction in our marriage, but my husband will be like, we need to talk about this. And I’m like, I get where you’re coming from, but I actually need to process this before we can have a positive conversation. I am the type that I really have to think through, why am I responding the way I am? And get to the heart of the problem before I feel like I can put good words to it. And that’s okay.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s such a good point too. Why am I responding the way that I am? So when you have a trigger, something that comes up with a client and you are just incensed or feeling scared or feeling deflated or whatever, okay, what is this? Where is this coming from? And is this real? So I think that’s a huge part of that awareness is like, where is this coming from? And it takes a minute.
Jessica Mackey: It does. And it takes some quiet minutes. Being willing to sit with yourself in those emotions and process it. And sometimes it’s uncomfortable, because sometimes it’s coming from a place of almost like PTSD or discovery. It’s triggering emotions that you like trying to keep repressed, but then they sneak in and sabotage other relationships. And that’s very-
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and we’re living in a world of immediate commenting on social media, just lighting somebody up, burning them down, like this hair trigger, and that is no way to build a relationship. So that’s why we’re so polarized. So it’s like, let’s heal the world by starting with ourselves and with our clients to respond in a respectful way, holding our own boundaries, but at the same time, hearing them and having those roots based in a long-term relationship, which is then going to allow that tree to grow and flourish in a really strong way.
Allison Tyler Jones: And to take your metaphor all the way is that then when hard times do come like a financial crisis like 2008 or COVID or who knows what’s coming up, we don’t even want to know, knock on wood, hopefully nothing. Hopefully it’s only going to be great from here on out, forever. But we know that that’s not true.
Jessica Mackey: I like the optimism.
Allison Tyler Jones: We know that there are going to be other things that will happen, but how businesses that survive are businesses that have long-term, solid roots of relationships with their clients.
Jessica Mackey: Right. And I think that comes to down to the very individual level too, especially in these solopreneurs that it’s like if you want to survive any kind of unexpected storms in your life, you need those deep roots. And I think that the deeper and the more you focus on those, and you trust, again, in that growth mindset, right? That’s it’s like, okay, I maybe wasn’t born into a family that really focused on relationship skills. That’s okay. You can still develop new skills. That’s what we’re here doing. We’re constantly growing and developing. And just because you didn’t have that or don’t have that doesn’t mean you can’t develop it.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. So to wrap it up, what would you say are some of your favorite resources? You mentioned Adam Grant’s books. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Any other books that aren’t too super, super academic that might be for us muggles out here in the world?
Jessica Mackey: Us muggles. That’s a, because again, the Carol Dweck, the Mindset book. I mean, that’s fantastic. There’s just so many good resources out there. I think my favorite way of getting knowledge in organizational psychology right now is almost articles. I love just online learning, because sometimes you don’t have the time or the mental capacity to sit down and read a whole book on growth mindset. But I can read an article on growth mindset and really take some time to process and think through that. And that’s just as great.
Allison Tyler Jones: So do you have maybe one or two that you could send me links for and we could put them in the show notes for our listeners?
Jessica Mackey: Of course, yes. I would love that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so we’ll link to a couple of your favorite articles in the show notes as a resource, because I think that’s a great idea. I think articles, I love that. Well, anything else that you want our listeners to know before you head off into the sunset?
Jessica Mackey: No, just that it’s okay that things are hard. It’s okay that you fall short, that people don’t always love what you do and that maybe you don’t always feel valued, and that’s okay. It’s something we all experience, and I think it’s just how we react and how we respond to that that matters, that instead of being cut down by it, that we decide that we’re going to build ourselves up and grow from it.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. And I think sometimes too, for me, I feel like one thing that’s helped me with that is that when something comes up that feels very threatening, I will go to the Nth degree, right? I’ll go to the very end.
Jessica Mackey: Yes, you do.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’ll say, I’ll go, “Okay, what’s the worst possible thing that could happen here? So what’s the worst possible thing? Are they going to kill me? Are they going to take one of my kids?” No. Probably the worst possible thing that’s going to happen out of this is that maybe there’s a refund.
Jessica Mackey: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right? I mean, really, if you get really to what is the worst possible, then you get less scared, at least for me. To me, I have to go to that end. What’s the worst possible thing that’s going to happen? And then I can talk about a lot of different solutions. But if I never think of that, if I am constantly just trying to save the thing, does that make sense?
Jessica Mackey: No, it does. If every little bad thing that happens makes you say, “This is the end of the world, literally,” if that’s your mindset, then it’s crippling. Then you do everything you can to avoid those negative interactions, whereas if you actually put them in, like you said, a true perspective, and you say, okay, no, it’s not the end of the world. It just might mean I have to give-
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m going to lose a little bit of money.
Jessica Mackey: … a couple thousand dollars. Yeah, that’s okay. That’s why we’ve saved money. It’s obviously not ideal and it does hurt, but it’s not the end of the world. You can still learn, grow, and continue on.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. Well, I really appreciate you being here today.
Jessica Mackey: Of course.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s been super valuable. I think people are going to get a lot out of this, and I’m just so proud of you for getting your master’s.
Jessica Mackey: Well, thank you for being my first ever psychology teacher. I couldn’t have done it without you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, sure. You’re great. Thank you.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.
