Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the rework.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi friends, and welcome back to the ReWork. Today we’re cracking open the ReWork vault once again and going back to our most downloaded episode, which is a successful first client phone call, which is absolutely hilarious, I have to tell you, because that was the third episode of the ReWork podcast that we recorded, how we had no idea what we’re doing, not that we know much more now, but we literally, Jessica and I when we recorded that episode, we were sitting on one of my kids’ beds in our basement with a single microphone just going back and forth because we had no idea what we were doing. It was actually really fun to do that, it was a great memory, but we found that that information in this episode has been so valuable for so many of you because it’s how to nail down what you’re selling, the value that you’re creating for your client in that very first phone call.

Allison Tyler Jones: To go along with that, what I would love for you to do is go to dotherework.com, and on that very first page of the website you’ll kind of scroll down a little bit and you’ll see three numbers, one, two, three. The number one, when you look at the number one, it says help me pre-sell your products. If you click on that, you can get our free PDF for our client consultation form. When you are doing your very first client phone call, you need to have that form with you to guide that phone call, and so I would suggest that you download that now even before you listen to the episode because it will help you visualize what we’re talking about. I learn really well when I have something both audio and visual. Go to dotherework.com, it’s free. Download the number one pre-sell your products, our ultimate client consultation form, and have that with you as you listen to this episode of a successful first client call.

Allison Tyler Jones: You can listen to this, and this will help make your calls. It’ll help you convert your leads into clients better. It will help your clients self-select whether they want to work with you or not, so that the clients that are coming into your business, there’s no big surprises, you’re not overwhelming them, you’re not even unintentionally doing any kind of a bait and switch. You’re able to bring them into your world in a really transparent and clear way so that you’re on solid footing from the beginning. I hope that you enjoy it and that you can use this immediately. I would love to know if you have used it and how it’s worked for you. You can DM me @atjphoto that’s on my Instagram feed or support@dotherework.com. Those are two easy ways to get in touch with me. I’d love to know how you’re using our form and how you’re using these principles in our most downloaded episode. Let’s do it.

Allison Tyler Jones: I’m so excited to be here with my very favorite client coordinator, Allison Tyler Jones Photography’s very own Jessica Mackey. Welcome, Jessica.

Jessica Mackey: Hello. Thank you.

Allison Tyler Jones: So glad that you’re here, even though you’re not able to do your job while you’re here recording this-

Jessica Mackey: But I’m helping you do your job.

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re helping me do my job, so it’s very good. I love having you here. What I wanted to talk with you about today, because I think it would be super helpful is you’ve been working… What is this? Your fifth year?

Jessica Mackey: Coming up on.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Okay. It wasn’t that long ago that you started with us, and when we were training in the beginning, I felt like it was really hard, it seemed like it felt scary to you, the first phone call with the clients when I said, okay, you’re going to be the client coordinator, I want you to be the first person that when an info at ATJ Photo comes through on the website, you are going to call the clients, you are going to make first contact with them, and that seemed intimidating to you. Did it?

Jessica Mackey: Horrifying would probably be more correct because it was super scary. I mean, I know that I would make the phone call, my hands would be shaking, you could hear how nervous I was in my voice. I would default to talking superfast and trying to get all the information in. I think it made it a little bit more nerve wracking that I knew you could hear everything I said. I’m like, she is listening to me, I’m doing it all wrong.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes, I was listening. For those of you who haven’t been on our studio, my office is right next to Jessica’s office and the wall doesn’t go all the way to the ceiling, so the benefit and the downside of that is that we can hear each other. It’s kind of good for training because when I’m in a sales session or talking to a client, my employees can hear me, so they kind of learn very quickly the language and that sort of thing, but it is pretty intimidating because they know that I can hear them when they’re talking to clients.

Allison Tyler Jones: Tell me what was hard? Obviously, when somebody’s listening to you and you’re new at your job, that’s intimidating, but when you were first calling, an info would come through off the website, you had that little printout, what that information is, is that it’ll have the client’s name, their phone number, contact info and then we have them fill out a little kind of why it is that they’re calling, it might say, oh, my oldest is graduating or whatever, so we have a little bit of information. You would take that, you would print that out so that you could write on it, go from there, what that process looks like.

Jessica Mackey: Okay. Initially, that process very much looked like, I have this paper in my hand, how many other things can I do before I felt like I have to make this phone call because that phone call was so intimidating and scary for me that I would do everything I could to put off making that phone call. It actually was extremely helpful that you could hear everything because even though during the phone call, maybe that felt a little bit intimidating, I feel like I learned the language so much faster.

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re sharpening pencils to avoid returning calls. I don’t think that’s just a new employee thing, I think there are plenty of us. I’ve sharpened a lot of pencils to avoid making calls, especially in the early days because I would just be afraid, but then if you’re the owner of the business, you kind of want to make those calls because that means that you’re going to get business in. There’s still a clench factor. Why were you avoiding it? What did you not want to have to face?

Jessica Mackey: I felt like the clients, especially new clients, this is their first contact with Allison Tyler Jones Photography, this is the first time that they have talked to any of us so they have questions, and a lot of them were very difficult questions and questions I didn’t know how to address so it would make me panic. What is the ATJ way to say this? How do I respond to this question? The more that I got those questions, the more that you guided that language, the more comfortable I become with all of those questions.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, I love that. I remember when you were starting and you were nervous and I was listening to you, and then you would get off the phone and I would say, okay, maybe we could say it this way, maybe we could do it that way. The great thing about you is that you have a lot of confidence in yourself personally anyway, so if I would critique something, you wouldn’t take it personally. I didn’t have to spend a lot of time saying, now, Jessica, I love you, you’re still great, you have worth as a human being, but now just change everything you just said.

Allison Tyler Jones: I could actually just say to you, okay, I would change this and this and this and say it this way, and you could take that information. I think that’s something that’s really helpful to know when you’re hiring somebody, is to look for somebody that has that innate self-confidence that they can take direction and not be destroyed by it. It’s interesting that you would bring up difficult questions because that’s something that we really have worked on because there are a lot of difficult questions that clients ask, but they tend to fall into just a couple of categories, and I don’t think there are a lot of difficult questions. Are there?

Jessica Mackey: I think it’s more different ways to ask the same types of difficult questions.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. In your mind, what was the scariest question when you were newer? What was the thing that locked you up that was hard for you to hear?

Jessica Mackey: When anybody talked about investment. Why does it cost so much? How expensive is it? For most people, when they first get on the phone, I know that for me, I’m all business so if I’m calling someone, I want to know all the most important details right up front. One of the first questions you get is, how much does it cost? That’s something that has to be addressed early on, and depending on how that conversation goes, it sets the tone for the rest of the phone call.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. I remember that when I was new talking to clients on the phone, when my business was new, and I also remember when you were new, and that was probably the number one thing that I had to keep pulling you back on was, you’re talking about price too soon.

Jessica Mackey: Agreed.

Allison Tyler Jones: Did you feel like it made a difference when you talked about price early versus later?

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely, because for people, when they get tied up in what the investment is, what the cost is, that’s all they’re thinking about. How do I make this work? Can I afford it? I don’t know, and they kind of tune out for the rest of the conversation a little bit. Whereas if you focus or redirect the focus to them and their family and talking about their family and talking about the things that they love and care about and what they’re going to do with these portraits, all of a sudden they’re emotionally involved, and so when you get to talking about the investment or the cost, they want it, they’re already sold on the experience so the cost doesn’t become a hurdle for them.

Allison Tyler Jones: But isn’t that manipulation? I mean, are we manipulating them? Is that trickery to get them? Because I’ve heard that many people you hear talk from the stage that say you need to keep them in the emotional side, not talking about the money. Did you feel like you were being tricky?

Jessica Mackey: Deceitful?

Allison Tyler Jones: Deceitful, yeah-

Jessica Mackey: That I was deceiving them?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Jessica Mackey: No, I think that it is helping them to understand that the investment really is about the experience, and the interactions with the employees, it’s the interactions with not just the photographer, but the client coordinator, the retoucher, and that whole experience is what they’re investing in, and so getting them to where they feel connected is part of that investment process. If you start the phone call law focusing on that connection, all you’re doing is making them feel the value.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. I also believe that all my lessons, I typically learnt the hard way, and what I learned is that I can’t really quote them a price until I know what it is that we’re doing, and that even though it feels like, especially in the early years, it feels like everybody is always just calling wanting to know price. Even now, I mean still you’re the one that’s taking these calls or making these calls, and people are still, of course, that’s the first thing they ask because when we don’t know about a certain industry or business or service that we’re calling about and we don’t know anything about it, so if I’m going to call a landscaper or I’m going to call an orthopedic surgeon, or I’m going to call an attorney, whatever the service is, because I don’t know anything about those industries, the first thing that I’m going to ask is, well, how much does it cost?

Allison Tyler Jones: But they can’t give me the answer to that without knowing… Let’s just say it’s an attorney, it’s an estate attorney. Okay, well, I need a will, how much do wills cost? Well, is it going to be a trust? How many kids do you have? How complicated is this? That’s going to be a consultation. They’re going to need a lot more information before they can quote me a price. They might be able to tell me what their hourly rate is, but they might not be able to tell me how much of the work could be done by a paralegal or what have you, so that’s going to be a custom quote, but somehow as photographers, we feel like we have to roll in hot with, give them a number when we really don’t have the full information. Really, that’s not the main thing.

Allison Tyler Jones: The main thing isn’t the price. The main thing is, let’s talk about the project, let’s talk about what it is that we’re shooting for, let’s talk about why it is that we’re shooting. Why are we doing this now? Because typically there would be an event that has prompted this contact, this first contact. When you go back to talking to them, when you have slowed yourself down, I tend to have the same bias of talking too quickly and jumping too quickly to the information, when you slow yourself down and let them talk and ask them what are the kinds of questions that you’re asking, how are you talking to them when you’re not leading with price? I’m calling, hi, you’re saying this is Jessica from Allison Tyler Jones Photography, and I’m like, I just need to know how much, what do you charge for a shoot?

Jessica Mackey: For the first time they ask about cost, usually it is one of the very first things out of their mouth, I do address the fact that this experience is very custom, everything we do is very custom, so first, let’s start by telling me about your family, tell me about your kids. You get them talking about their family and what they’re looking to do and what the project looks like, and then eventually you absolutely do get to price because you don’t want to walk away not talking about that. That has to be a part of the first conversation, but you just don’t want to lead with it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Exactly, because it’s kind of like in a conversation when you’re getting to know somebody asking the yes or no questions, you never really get to know them if they can answer yes or no. Whereas if you ask something that’s interesting, then you’re going to have a better conversation, you’re going to get to know them better. Let’s talk about even before you got them on the phone call, there are many times that these info at emails will come through and they’ll say, can you send me your pricing? Do we do that?

Jessica Mackey: We don’t, because again, it’s reinforcing to these clients. Everybody wants to feel special and so we’re actually not giving them something they don’t want when we tell them this is very custom, this is all dependent on what works best for your family, your home, where you are in your life right now, what it is you’re looking to do with this project, and giving them a one size fits all package. Nobody actually wants that, and so being able to communicate to them exactly how special this experience is and how unique and how individual, I think, actually helps them connect to the experience more.

Allison Tyler Jones: I totally agree with that. I feel like many times the easy thing, especially in the digital world we live in is when somebody emails and says can you just send me your price list? The easiest thing in the world would be just to send them a PDF price list, but there’s no context for that. It would be like sending somebody, somebody wants to buy a Learjet, the list of parts and then the price for each one of them. What does that mean? That has no context until you know you have the bigger picture, so really what we’re doing in that first contact, that first phone call, we want to, first of all, as soon as that email comes through, if possible, if we’re at the studio, we want to get them on the phone right away, we don’t want to be sharpening pencils, we don’t want to put it off, we want to get them on the phone right away because if it’s a mother, she’s generally in a carpool lane or she just got home from dropping off our kids in the morning, that’s typically when those emails are coming through.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s top of mind for her right then, we want to get her on the phone as soon as we possibly can, and then we’re spending just taking the time and being curious about her family, about her kids, because that’s all information that we need to create the art that we’re creating, we want to capture the essence of that family, those relationships, that kid. You are such a help to be able to be my ears, and you know what it is because you’ve worked with me long enough to know what we’re shooting for and what that experience looks like and you know the information that I need so you can spend the time talking to them. The other thing that I think is really great that you do when you’re talking to these moms and sometimes dads is how you really will relate to them as parents. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jessica Mackey: Yeah, absolutely. I think that the number one thing for the first phone call is to connect. You’re looking for ways that you can validate, that you can say, oh my gosh, I totally get where you’re coming from. I’ve had the same exact thing happen. As they’re telling you about the kids, as they’re sharing stories, don’t just give them one wordy answers, oh yeah, got it, okay, who’s next? You’re making it clear that you want to know more and that you care about this kid that you’ve never met, total complete stranger but you care, and because you care, those parents feel a lot more connected, they feel connected to the client coordinator, they feel connected to Allison who they have yet to meet, but they’re like, if this phone call is going to be this good of an experience, I can only imagine what the rest of this will be like. You want them to feel that connection right from the get-go, however that looks like.

Jessica Mackey: Everybody connects in a different way, but I think that one of the top tricks that is very effective is not making it about you. It’s really tempting in an effort to connect, to tell a really self-focused story about something that happened to you and take five minutes. No, everything that you say to connect with the client has to circle back to them. They’re talking about their sixteen-year-old boy, oh my gosh, when my son was 16, he totally did the same thing, and then you’re back to them. You don’t stay on you because this isn’t about you, this is about them and connecting with them.

Allison Tyler Jones: I don’t think you can overstate that enough. I think it’s super helpful, and I’ve heard you on the phone and I do the same, to let them know that you are a parent as well. You’ve got a 16-year-old, a 14-year-old, 12 and then eight. My kids are 32 down to 26-

Jessica Mackey: You’ve got grandkids.

Allison Tyler Jones: I have grandkids. The benefit, that’s almost like a secret power because we’ve seen all the ages and stages and developmental milestones of all those years so when you have a mom calling and saying, well, I’ve got this three-year-old and he’s just so shy and he’s so hard to warm up, I don’t even know if I’m going to be able to get him in pictures. That’s something that you and I can both speak to because we’ve had a three-year-old, and some of our three-year-olds have been nightmares-

Jessica Mackey: Or super shy.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, or super shy, and so we can speak to that. Oh, three is really hard and I know that with my daughter XYZ. You can just have that little snippet of-

Jessica Mackey: And then bring it back to them.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then bring it back. When he’s shy, what does that look like? Tell me what’s hard about that or what has been the experience in the past? Meanwhile, you’re taking notes on all of this so that then when I go into the consultation with them, I can look at those notes and say, okay, so your three-year-old is shy, it sounds like you told Jessica, she shared with me this and this, and you can just see them light up because if you’re a mother or a parent, the best thing in the world that you’ve ever done in life is these kids, and so when somebody else loves your kids and is interested in them and wants to create an amazing experience for them, when do you get that?

Jessica Mackey: Right, and even the small things that you think are irrelevant, like, doesn’t like chocolate chip cookies, you take notes of everything that comes out of their mouth about their child or their spouse or whoever it is that’s going to be with them in this experience because those are all different ways you can relate. You see that child and you can talk to them about, oh my gosh, chocolate chip cookies are the worst.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Jessica Mackey: All of that is just information that you can use. I think that when you bring up taking notes, it is very important to be mindful of where you are and what you’re doing when you do these first phone calls, because I felt there’s been periods where studio was crazy, I didn’t feel like I really had the time so I was multitasking and you could tell. The phone calls really dropped in quality, the connection to the client was off, that relationship definitely was affected, and so making sure that you stop what you’re doing, you focus completely on that phone call. I mean, you are actively listening, actively engaging and just focusing on that connection and you tune everything else out. I completely ignore Allison when I’m on the phone. Nothing gets in the way of me listening to this client.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. That’s true. That’s taken you a while to get to ignore me, but I’m glad that you ignore.

Jessica Mackey: I get so much more work done.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. It’s been helpful in the training phase when you have a new employee to maybe set that expectation that when you start having client contact in the beginning, you are going to be monitored because you can help them improve so quickly. They can improve just by leaps and bounds with each individual phone call, you can give them that critique and give them the feedback. I do it even now, I mean not as much, but every now and then I’ll say to you, oh my gosh, that was so good, I totally love that, did you realize that you’re saying this again? I don’t even know what-

Jessica Mackey: Or even some helpful criticism that you might have. It doesn’t matter who it is that’s coming in because I felt like I was very good with people, had great people skills coming in, it would’ve been easy for you to think, oh, she’s got this, like, I don’t need to listen, I don’t need to be paying attention, but talking to my aunt Janine is a completely different skill set than talking to a prospective client, and so having that guidance and that someone who is there to support and teach, made it so much more comfortable, so much faster.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I’m glad that you felt that way. I’m sure it didn’t always feel like that. I just know that when I would start listening to you more, it’s when I noticed we weren’t converting quite as many. We’d get two or three in a row booking calls that they didn’t book, then that’s probably when I need to listen and say, okay, is something going wrong here? Now, there might not be anything going on, it might be just very unqualified people that walked by down our street that were in a downtown that’s not sexy at all, and so you get somebody that’s walking by, those generally aren’t super qualified people, they just saw the sign and said, oh, can I come in today with my baby, I just need a five by seven? That’s not really a qualified person, but the thing that I’ve realized that’s so great watching you over the past few years is that in the beginning you would say I know this person isn’t qualified, so you would maybe put them on hold and you would kind of say, this person isn’t qualified. What would I always say to you?

Jessica Mackey: Assume everybody is our client until they tell you otherwise.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. I did this too. You’d think, oh my gosh, they heard about me on Google, and then you’d kind of have maybe more clipped responses, not give them the full-

Jessica Mackey: Try to get off faster-

Allison Tyler Jones: Try to get off faster, maybe talk price super early so you shock and get them off. But really there’ve been people that have surprised me for sure that I would think, well, maybe not, but then they’ve come in and they’ve been great clients. That is super important, I feel like, and even just for our own humanity and our own integrity, everybody deserves the same love and then they can tell us whether they want to pay for the ultimate love or not, but they’re the ones making that decision, we’re not making that decision.

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely, and not making any assumptions based on the first few things that they’re saying because they don’t know what to ask, this may be a completely new experience for them, and so just giving everyone that same level of connectivity and investment and attention and then letting them make the call.

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. When you talk about those difficult questions, what would you say were the things that really made you kind of like, don’t ask that? Or when they ask that you felt like, well, hold on just one minute, let me just put you on hold? What would be some of those questions?

Jessica Mackey: I think that one of those questions, obviously anything about price was hard, so if they were asking, okay, even if I want to get an eight by 10, and then you tell them the price of an eight by 10, and they’re a little bit shocked, that would make me cringe. Now it’s just like, no, this is what it is, it’s worth it. Every single one of these items might be an investment, but it’s worth it. I know the time and attention that goes into all of this, and so I don’t apologize for it. I can say, I know it’s quite an investment, or yeah I know it’s the same cost as a small car, in some cases. You can validate their concerns with it, but I don’t excuse it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Jessica Mackey: I don’t try to pretend like it’s not okay.

Allison Tyler Jones: What do you think has shifted for you?

Jessica Mackey: I think what shifted for me was, initially, I felt like I had to explain the price or I had to make them see the value. Now, I just know intrinsically that the value is there and we can talk about all the things and they can choose to see it or not see it, but I don’t need to justify the price. This is what it is, this is the investment, if this is an experience you would like to invest in, awesome. If it’s not, I don’t need to apologize for that.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. Okay, I feel like we’ve kind of jumped around a little bit, so let’s just say you’ve made the call, the info@ email has come in off the website, you’ve made the call, you’ve made contact with the client and now they are saying to you early on in the conversation, I just need to know how much a session is, then you’re starting from the beginning, which is, well, tell me a little bit more about your family. Why are we doing this now? Tell me about your kids. Now you’re going into, you’re not not saying price, you’re just, give me a little bit of information. Right?

Jessica Mackey: Right, and this is very custom.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. How we work is very custom, give me a little bit of information about your family. That’s completely legit, it’s not avoiding that question, it’s not being trickery, it’s just getting more information because it is information that you need. How many kids do you have?

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely, because I can tell you the session price, but the session price may have no reflection on what the actual investment is going to be because are we talking wall art? Are we talking gallery? Are we talking gifts for all the grandparents? Are we talking albums? Are we talking 10 duplicates of the albums? You can’t even begin to give them an accurate range even until you start to have a better scope of the project. Who’s going to be in it? What are they looking to do with it? Why now? Are they album people? Are they wall people? Do they think that they’re just going to get digitals? Addressing all of that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. You’ve talked about the kids, they’ve shared their info with you about the kids, where they’re at, depending on how much time they have, which actually brings up another point to go back is that when you’re calling them, one of the things that we always do is that when you get them on the phone is to say, is this a good time, do you have a 15, 20 minutes to discuss this with me? So then they have an expect expectation.

Jessica Mackey: You give them that time and you want to let them know because if you say, do you have a few minutes, they’re thinking, you mean five, and this phone call could easily take 30.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, exactly.

Jessica Mackey: Giving them a realistic timeframe, the 15 to 20 minutes so that they can make that call, or they’ll let you know if you need to schedule it for another time, and that’s totally fine.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, because if they’re in the pickup line or they’ve got kids in the car or whatever, then they might not be able to really focus on that. Then ultimately, they still want to know price, but this is not the consultation, this is the first phone call because you are doing the first phone call, and I’m doing the first consultation at this point in our business, so how do you segue into the pricing portion of the program, because you know that’s still hanging there?

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely. Well, a lot of times we segue into first talking about how Allison does things a little bit differently. She specializes in custom wall art for your home or custom designed albums, and each of her sessions is actually comprised of three separate appointments. We go through all of that, and I do bring up the session price. This is the session price, X amount goes towards the session, the remaining amount goes towards a portrait credit.

Jessica Mackey: I say something along the lines of, typically we tell first time clients to plan on the investment being somewhere north of an amount. You don’t necessarily give them a hard range, you just say north of whatever, and so that way they feel like, oh, okay, if I spend this amount, that’s totally normal. They have something to talk to their husband about. They have a ballpark, but without capping it. You don’t want to give them a top number because you want them to feel like if they spend however many tens of thousands of dollars, that’s totally normal, absolutely, everybody does it, but you just want to give them a starting point to think of.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, exactly. That all seems like we’ve kind of crafted this. It’s not really a script, it’s more of a sequence. We are just keeping on this loose sequence of, first, get ahold of them, then make sure they have time to talk, then talk about the kids, their family, dream and scheme about the project, what is it that we’re doing, tell me about all these personalities, why you want to do this in the first place, and then give them an idea of, okay, this is what the session fee is, this is how the session fee is credited, and then a typical starting point for what most people would invest would be X, then you’re setting up those three appointments for them. You’re setting up the consultation, you’re setting up the session and then you’re setting up the view on order appointment.

Jessica Mackey: Yes. It is helpful for them to know that the consultation, we do use the wording that that’s where you’re going to work out your game plan with Allison, so they know that there’s going to be another opportunity to talk clothes, to dig deeper into the investment, to ask more questions because they’re going to get off the phone with you and feel like, oh wait, I should have asked ABCD.

Jessica Mackey: Knowing that there’s still a point where they can do that, I think, is very good for them, I think that it’s also important to make sure that they know that when it comes to the investment, you are not being deceitful, you are not trying to hide anything. We do say Allison wants to be very… She’s a big believer in being very transparent about the investment so that they know when they go to the consultation, they can go as in deep into what this investment might look like as they want to. Some people don’t want to get specific, others really do, they want to know, okay, if I do three 16 by 20, what is that going to look like?

Jessica Mackey: If I do a really big 40 by 50, what is that going to look like? Knowing that they can get those answers is great. We also have them come prepared with photos of their home, that helps guide the conversation with Allison, but I think being able to be transparent about the pricing, I think it is okay to have a few things scripted, maybe you have your structure of the conversation, but there are some things that we say that we say with every client because the wording matters in that instance. Like I said, with telling them that typically clients spend north of, that is a phrase we use in every single first phone call, and that works.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, shout out to Kim Wiley Photography because she and Jessica are the ones that gave me that wording-

Jessica Mackey: That’s awesome.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, because what I used to say was, our clients spend between X and X, and Jessica Sykes, who is Kim Wiley’s partner said, why are you saying that, because if somebody spends over the higher amount, they’re going to feel like they blew the budget, when really you know that you have lots of sales that are higher than that, so why are you capping it? I think that’s really important that these little nuances are the things that make the biggest difference, it’s not the big stuff. In the beginning, it was obviously stressful for you when people would say how much.

Jessica Mackey: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: Why do you feel like that’s not stressful for you now, because you feel like you’ve just internalized the value?

Jessica Mackey: Right. I think that I’ve drunk the Kool-Aid, I understand the value, I get it. It’s not hard to sell. Honestly, if it were hard for a photographer to sell, it is a little bit nice being one person removed because I’m not talking about my work, I’m talking about I’m an outsider in some ways. Okay, I’m an insider, but I’m talking about work that I love, work that my family has experienced. We have come as a family and we do a session with Allison every year. This is something that we have personally experienced, it’s something that I can understand, we did pictures every year out in the park or in the desert or wherever, leading up to when I started working with Allison. I have a lot of experience with multiple different types of photography and 100% feel like I can get behind the value of Allison Tyler Jones.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, thank you. What would you say to a photographer that doesn’t have a person to put in front of a client, that they’re selling their own work?

Jessica Mackey: I think that you just have to feel confident in your work, you might be better to even answer this question, but I think you don’t need to apologize because some people get caught up in this, they’re not my client. You don’t want to go too far with that because, again, you don’t want to assume that someone is not your client and just write them off, you might lose a fantastic prospective client, but at the same time, you need to give yourself the grace that if they don’t book, maybe they just are looking for something different.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. I also think I love Steve Saporito, he’s a friend, I just really admire the way that he thinks. One of the things that he says is that sometimes people think as the photographer you think, oh, they think I’m not worth it, my work isn’t worth the money, but he maintains that people feel like they aren’t worth it.

Jessica Mackey: Interesting.

Allison Tyler Jones: I’m not worth spending that much money on it. How many times have we had people say, oh well, I don’t want to have a big picture of me on the wall because that would be egotistical or whatever? I feel like spending the time with the client and helping them to really immerse themselves in why they love their kids and why they love their family, that is really the key is to realize that, yeah, you’re so smart to do this. I’ve heard you say it multiple times, and we try to always really cement that you are so smart to be doing this right now. I can always say that truthfully-

Jessica Mackey: And mean it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Truthfully-

Jessica Mackey: Yes, absolutely-

Allison Tyler Jones: Because whether you’ve got the two-year-old that’s bossing you around with a little fat tummy hanging over the diaper, or your-

Jessica Mackey: The 4-year-old that’s almost not a little kid anymore.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, or just before they lose their teeth or they just lost the teeth, these are all things that make up the memories and the things that are special. Our best clients are the ones that see the time going by and want to capture all of those little things, so if we can brainstorm amazing things for them and keep them coming back, what better thing could they spend their money on than documenting their family and the people they love? There’s just no better thing, and so bringing them into our experience, bringing them into the ATJ world and letting them feel how much we love our families and how much we are going to love on their family, then the price part becomes way less scary to talk about because you’re like, yeah, of course we’re going to kill ourselves for you, so yeah, of course, that’s what it costs. The thing that I think is interesting too is, I’ve heard you, I can tell that they’ve said maybe something about, like, wow, that is really expensive, because what do you say to them now?

Jessica Mackey: I know.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, exactly.

Jessica Mackey: It’s an investment, but it’s something that’s going to hang on your walls forever and you are never going to take this down. You might move it, it might change locations, but that is never coming off your wall.

Allison Tyler Jones: We don’t try to talk them out of it, we don’t try to say, well, it is printed on the finest papers and it is custom framed and we are going to bring it and install it. Even though all of those things are true, it’s just… Yeah, it is-

Jessica Mackey: We don’t feel-

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s expensive.

Jessica Mackey: We need to excuse it or justify it, but we do validate it. We do say, yeah, it is. I know it’s such a huge investment.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s going to be so awesome, and you’re so smart for doing it right now.

Jessica Mackey: Exactly, you are going to love it. For me, I can say that I legitimately have these portraits up on my wall and they bring us so much joy. I love them, they’re timeless. It’s almost like time capsules of our family that you get to see them growing up and they’re never coming down. If you know that and you see the value, you’re not apologizing for it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. For sure. If you’re a true believer, you don’t mind being a missionary. Right?

Jessica Mackey: Exactly. A missionary of whoever’s photographic work.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. Photo church, for sure.

Jessica Mackey: Photo church.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s been great having you here and so fun to talk about this. Is there anything else you think of that we have missed or that we should add?

Jessica Mackey: I think that there are other frequently asked difficult questions that come up, but the price thing is the big one. That’s the one that every photographer, especially anyone doing in-person sales, you’re up against it, these are often clients who have only ever done someone who gives them 40 digitals and they have to take it, so you’re having to retrain them. That first phone call is the beginning of that process where you’re training them to understand that we hold your hand through this whole process. We are not going to let these photos just live on your computer, we’re going to make sure they get on your wall, we’re going to help put them on your wall. We are with you beginning to end, we are going to consult on design, we’re going to consult on clothing, we’re going to guide you through the whole thing, and suddenly they see the value. It’s just almost re-education.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, they see that basically you’re not even the same kind of business, you’re doing something completely different.

Jessica Mackey: Exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: Let’s just end with, what is the ultimate difficult question other than price? What’s the other most-

Jessica Mackey: Do you do digitals?

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Did that ever give you a pause?

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. How have you brokered that in your own mind, besides me beating you to death over the head about it?

Jessica Mackey: I was like, wait, did I broker this in my own mind? I’m pretty sure that it was forced into my vocabulary to reword how you talk about it, because clients hate hearing no. If you tell them no we don’t do digitals, they almost get defensive. I don’t know another way to say it, like, how dare you take my digitals. Whereas we say, absolutely, we do social media files for anything you purchase, we’ll send those to you and you’re welcome to share them on Instagram and Facebook. Sometimes, depending on the client, I will say that they’re non-printable digital files, but a lot of times they’re just like, oh, great. That’s all they care about. They want to be able to post them. They want people to see how cute their family is, they’re not actually trying to print them.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. Finding a way to figure out what those frequently asked difficult questions are, the ones that make you clench, the ones that make you pucker every single time, if they’re still making you pucker, then you need to role play it, write it out, put a script, even if it’s not an actual sentence script, but even just bullet points of this, this, and this. Say you’re specialize in wall art, albums and then social media files are available for anything that you’ve already purchased. Just even having that-

Jessica Mackey: Right. You have to mentally plan for it. You’re preparing that if you’re prepared, you’re not going to be as scared.

Allison Tyler Jones: I find when I’m doing the initial contact, because sometimes I still do that for some clients if it’s on a weekend and I want to make sure that I get ahold of them and the studio isn’t open or whatever, I will actually bring that up before they ask me. I think sometimes it’s actually helpful to get out ahead of that and be able to just say, I will say something like, we’re not normal, we’re not a typical photography studio, we specialize in finished product that’s wall art for your home or custom designed albums of your family, and then anything that goes on the wall or in an album, we would provide social media files, digital files for those, but we do not sell printable digital files. Yeah.

Jessica Mackey: Well, and something else that we have discussed before that sometimes I hit-and-miss whether or not I address it with clients is asking them have you been professionally photographed before?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes.

Jessica Mackey: If they say, yeah, you’re like, yes, okay, tell me about that experience, what did you do with those portraits, because if you’re starting that conversation and you’re controlling that early on, you’re hearing that, oh yes, I got the digital, I printed them all big, I framed them myself. That’s a different conversation than someone who has only ever had them on their computer and has never done any-

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s 99% of the people, they’re all living on their computer and they’re embarrassed about it. They’re like, oh, like everybody else, they’re living on my computer, I’ve never printed them, I’ve always wanted to, but every time I go to look at them, I just get overwhelmed, I don’t know which ones to print. Or I tried to print, I couldn’t ever crop them right, they came out weird, whatever. Or like you said, if you have that 1% that’s like, yeah, I got canvases for everybody in my family, got them all done at Shutterfly, did albums, whatever, then that’s going to be somebody that you’re going to want to still probably could be an amazing client, maybe a little more collaborative in the design process, but you’re going to have to really educate them and let them know that we work differently.

Jessica Mackey: Right, exactly, because you know that they do print, but it is gathering the information and controlling the conversation.

Allison Tyler Jones: For sure. Well, I’m excited. It’s been fun to explore this topic, and I think as we leave here today, the things that we could rework in our business if you’re new is just making a list of those questions that you’re continually getting or that maybe your employees are getting, where you feel like if your leads are not converting into sessions, you’re seeing that over and over, there’s probably something wrong in the process, in that first initial contact, maybe you’re sending off a quickie PDF email, emailing off a sheet and not having that first conversation, but then if you are having that conversation, are you talking price too soon? Are you not getting the context? Are you not providing a really good slow ramp into the client experience? Knowing the things that they’re going to ask and having just good, calm answers and acknowledging, yeah, it is expensive.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s typically a reaction that we would get because we’re not typical and because we specialize in wall art for your home or custom albums. It’s just acknowledging that and not trying to be defensive about that and just staying loose and then getting them to the point where they’re ready to book a session and come in for your consultation, which we’ll talk about in another episode.

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely. I think that if you are finding that things aren’t working, just talking to someone, even like Allison and I are doing, I’ve had thoughts about, oh, we should do this and we should be doing that.

Allison Tyler Jones: What should we do? What were your thoughts?

Jessica Mackey: Well, my thoughts were, you mentioned not responding to the email with the PDF of the pricing, but how many times do we make a phone call and get a voicemail? People just are not listening to their voicemails and they’re maybe not calling back and taking it to the next level, so why not respond to the email and say, hey, I just shot you a voicemail, give us a call back, we’d love to chat more. Something so that it’s another layer of engagement.

Allison Tyler Jones: Actually, we’ve never talked about this, but what I’m doing, if I don’t get them, I will text them and say, hey, I just left you a voicemail, I would love to talk to you about the project, when are some good times for us to connect?

Jessica Mackey: Are you getting good response on that?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. I’ll usually say, I’m available on this day, one to two, or this day, because nobody wants to talk on the phone, you look up and you see a number that comes up on your phone-

Jessica Mackey: One you don’t recognize.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s not in your phone, it’s spam, and so you’re sending it to voicemail, but sometimes even when I’ve called them… Leave the voicemail because they’ll read it because now with the transcript on the voicemail, you can see, oh shoot, it was Allison Tyler Jones Photography, I do want to talk to her, and sometimes they’ll call right back.

Jessica Mackey: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: But it’s just, contacting them-

Jessica Mackey: Levels of engagement.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, it’s harder than ever to be able to get them on the phone, so I know when we first started this conversation, today, I’m sure people are like, well, I can’t get anybody on the phone. It seems like it’s more efficient and easier just to send something off an email, but it’s not the experience. That’s not how when you’re buying something expensive for your home, which is what we’re selling, we’re selling expensive home decor, that experience is not us, let me send you a priceless experience, that is, let’s determine what your needs are, let’s sit down together and figure it out and assess and make this great for you. That’s what we want.

Jessica Mackey: Because you don’t want to give them too much information and not enough connection.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Right. Context.

Jessica Mackey: Right?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, for sure. Go away, rework a few things in your business and we would love to hear from you on our DMs at do.the.rework on Instagram or info@atjphoto.com. All right, have a good day.

Jessica Mackey: Yeah, let us know your frequently asked difficult questions.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, we’d love to hear it.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.

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