Recorded: Welcome to the ReWork with Allison Tyler-Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little ReWork. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the ReWork.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi friends, and welcome back to the ReWork. I am so excited for you to hear this episode today because one of our very favorites is back, Mr. Tim Walden. And in this heartwarming episode entitled Layers of Love, you might think that we are talking about all the touchy-feely, which we are, but this conversation took a turn that I did not expect. It took a turn into figuring out how you can get your clients to trust you, how to take control of every part of the process, especially during a session. How do you master that room or that set, that control of that session and how actually taking more control and helping clients see that you know what needs to be done, helps them to trust you and builds layers and layers of love into every part of your portrait process.

Allison Tyler Jones: Tim shares how he weaves those layers of love into each and every Walden portrait, creating timeless memories that resonate for generations with his clients. So whether you are a seasoned photographer or you’re just starting out, this episode is going to offer you invaluable insights into the craft of meaningful portraiture and also, the craft of client experience and gaining your client’s trust, managing their expectations, and as Tim would say, creating their expectations and then fulfilling them. Let’s do it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Well, favorite guest, fan favorite, Tim Walden is back.

Tim Walden: Well, thank you. I feel honored as always.

Allison Tyler Jones: I’m so happy that you’re here. Okay, so I had somebody DM me and ask me, it seems like you just have layers of love for your clients. You just are doing all these different things for your clients, and how do I even know where to start with that? And so, I thought people are tired of hearing from me what they need to hear from us from Tim Walden who has been doing layers of love from time immemorial. So I just wanted to have a conversation about, we talk about this a lot as friends and portrait studio owners. So what does that mean to you when somebody says layering the love on your clients? In yours and Bev’s world, what does that mean to you?

Tim Walden: Well, you got to start out by being a Kentucky redneck. We have a bunch of cousins around here, and I always tell everybody, you got to treat every client like a cousin. I think about what level of relationship is appropriate for a client, and if I could define what most business and entrepreneurs, photographers, their relationship doesn’t go deep enough. I think they get a little too afraid of getting a little bit deeper. So I have 50 cousins and I really literally have 50 cousins, and I don’t talk to them all the time and I don’t see them as much, but they’re family,

Tim Walden: And if one of them wins an award or one of them has a challenge in their life, I’m dropping them a note, checking in with them, things like that. So I think that’s first and foremost, is you have to see people as family members, not as transactions, but as family members. And what is that appropriate for you? For me, it’s like a cousin, and I use that always to help people remember, but it’s very true for me.

Tim Walden: And I think the other thing about service is what makes service work in my estimation is the spirit that’s underneath it. That’s what makes service work. If the right spirit is not underneath that service, it’s patronizing. It’s a bit insulting when it’s canned. So if you come from that place of sincerity, because you can go into business and they can say, “Hey, how’s your husband? How are your kids?” You can just see there’s no sincerity in any of that. It’s whiteboards. I call it whiteboard speak. So for me, if there’s a sincerity underneath it, that helps, and that’s what makes service work. So it’s what you do, but more importantly, it’s how you do what you do and where that comes from. Actually, one of Zig Ziglar’s quotes about something like this. He said, “If you are sincere, praise is effective, but if you’re insincere, it’s manipulative.” And I find that to be so powerful because you’re saying the same things, you’re doing the same things, but it’s totally opposite side of the coin.

Tim Walden: So I think for us, it starts with really caring about people and treating them like my cousins and loving them like that. And I think people can read. They can read that. They know that. In this business, if you don’t like people, what are you doing?

Allison Tyler Jones: Probably in the wrong business.

Tim Walden: Yeah. Maybe you want to move on over to the printing side of things.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Have somebody else. Yeah, with the clients. Well, the thing that I think that’s interesting about how you said that is, I’m not sure exactly what exact words you said, but is basically, you’re giving yourself an internal framework to put clients into. So for you, it’s you’re going to treat them like family, you’re going to treat them like cousins. Now, for somebody else, whether they have a different business model or not, but maybe they aren’t comfortable with quite that close of a relationship, but maybe they would treat them as a friend, or I think there are different ways… But I think to have a framework of, okay, how do I see these people? And then build your layers of love around that.

Tim Walden: I treat my friends better than my cousin. So you’re right. That’s where you come from.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that’s true. That’s interesting. Yeah. So because again, we don’t want anybody to be us, we want them to be true to themselves and how they want to run their business. Some people might be a little bit… They might love people, but maybe they’re a little bit more introverted and more private, and they are going to attract very private type people that really, actually, don’t call me family. Don’t say that. Then that feels manipulative. So I think you have to really look at how you’re doing it and what’s true to you.

Tim Walden: It’s where it comes from. Yeah, it’s where it comes from. And for us, it comes from that place of absolute sincerity. And we have clients that send us texts of their kids singing in church or winning an award, things like that. And it has nothing to do with business. And I think what we’ve done and what we try to do is nurture the kind of relationship that allows that to happen. And so I love that. And I don’t respond back, it’s time for a portrait.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Right.

Tim Walden: I’m so proud of her or I’m so proud of him.

Allison Tyler Jones: For anybody singing in church today, you get a 50% off coupon.

Tim Walden: Yes, exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: What a coincidence.

Tim Walden: That’s probably Sunday when that happens. What a coincidence. Yeah. But no, I think it’s where it comes from, and that’s why I say it’s the spirit that’s underneath it, ultimately, of service, I think, that makes it work and keeps it from feeling manipulative or wrong in some way.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. So when your dad had the business, because you took over from your dad, did he do things differently than… Well, I know he did. He did things differently than you and Bev, but what have you taken from what he did? Is there a through line there between those two generations?

Tim Walden: Yeah. Well, there is. My dad was an amazing photographer and he truly loved people. He’s one of the best communicators I’ve ever seen in my life. His ability to tell people even the most difficult things and the way they would receive it was just incredible. I’ve never seen anybody that could say anything, and it always came from such a good place. And so I watched and learned a lot about how he cared for people and how his business was wrapped around celebrating them, their stories, their life. My dad was amazingly good at everything except sales and marketing. He sucked at those things. He was so bad. And I’ve said that over and over, and I say it with a lot of love, but he didn’t need to make money. He couldn’t afford to make money because he was on disability. So sales, no, he wasn’t good at it. And marketing, no, he wasn’t good at it, but customer service, relationship, building, photography on the technical side, he was a master.

Tim Walden: And so all of that has been threaded through, and I’ve looked to him a lot, thought about him a lot as I think about, this is the way I want to treat people, as long as like you say, it comes from such a good place where it’s for me and not for him.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So when you took over and you realized, actually, we do need to make money because you aren’t on disability and you need to pay bills, and you knew that that was going to require sales and marketing, and this might be a hard question, how did you thread that authenticity or that love into your sales and marketing? Because I felt like that’s how you did it.

Tim Walden: Well, yeah. That side of loving people and caring about them. I was a starry-eyed kid. I didn’t get into photography for money. I just all of a sudden realized, oh my gosh, I’ve got to make money. Things were looking pretty bad, but my core values and principles have never changed. And that is celebrating people caring about them, using photography to tell their story, finding ways to connect myself and my art to their story, and connecting them to the photography. All that was at the center. And I think a lot of that was from my years of working under my dad, I just had to figure out how to do that. And actually, that’s where it really began for me. It was taking those core values, but bringing it to a place where it was financially rewarding and figuring out how to marry art and craftsmanship with the emotion where it wasn’t just therapy, because for my dad, photography, it was therapy. And my problem was, if I kept going the way my dad was, I was going to need therapy.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, right.

Tim Walden: Different kind.

Allison Tyler Jones: Different kind. Yeah.

Tim Walden: Yeah. Help me. Yeah. And so it was birthed from that. I was a starry-eyed kid that always thought, well, photography can change people’s lives, it can tell their stories, and I can’t write, or I would write meaningful stories. I can’t paint, or I would paint meaningful images. What I can do is portray, and so I want to portray meaningful imagery that tells stories.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And so you, with the relationship portraiture, the black and white relationship portraiture, I feel like that’s when you really went to a place of, this isn’t about us. This isn’t about, we won this many awards and our stuff is printed on this, or it was framed in that, it was look at our clients, look at the stories behind these people and celebrating. So your dad had that same through line, could celebrate them, could love on them, but you took that into the sales and marketing, which created an entire product line and a very successful long-term legacy business by making it not about you, which is another layer of love.

Allison Tyler Jones: So even within the marketing and sales, which so often, I think there’s so many photographers that are just like your dad that aren’t on disability, that love… It’s therapy for them. They love the art, they love being with the people, but man, when it comes to making a sale or asking for money or marketing, that’s where they don’t want to do it and they feel like they have to be salesy or they feel like it has to be inauthentic. But you really turn that on its head by making all of that about the client and just another way of celebrating your client.

Tim Walden: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. The photography, as I’ve said over and over. You sell the result of your photography, you market the result of your photography. When you’re in a conversation with people, you talk about the result of your photography. People connect to stories more, especially from my perspective, I love to tell stories. So to sit down and share stories with them and use photography to tell those stories, then everything becomes a spinoff of that. All of your marketing, all of your sales orbit around that core principle of who you are. And so I never wanted to do this in a way that I had to apologize for the quality. My dad instilled that in me that I need to be excellent. But it took me a while as you know, Allison, to learn how to balance technical excellence and powerful emotion and storytelling because they don’t always go hand in hand.

Tim Walden: And I think the story always has to rise to the top, technical excellence makes the photography invisible, meaning you don’t see the photograph, you see the story. It stands the test of the time. It’s not a facade. If you can do all that, put it together and remain true to that storytelling side and share those people’s stories, that’s the sweet spot. And that’s where we try to land. We don’t hit a home run every time. We’re like everyone else. It’s frustrating at times because I’m like, ah, I want to bend this. I want to fix this, but I never want to miss the story and I have to be okay with the fact that I’m always got another step to take, or I think I wouldn’t be in this business. There’s always one more level I need to get to. I just didn’t get there. And that is both on the emotional, technical side, all of those things.

Tim Walden: And then of course, all of the peripherals today you’re talking about, and I know we’ve had this conversation a million times, but it’s where the letter writing came from. That’s still the core of what we do. Having people write a letter to their children, that was really birthed out of understanding who we were as an artist, what our purpose was. And our purpose was telling stories and not telling any story, telling that client’s story, that cousin’s story, so to speak. Telling their story and then finding ways that, how do you add layers of depth and texture and longevity to that? And some of those things go beyond photography and you’re teaching them, here’s what you’d like. Write them a letter, and then here’s when you take that portrait off the wall. I don’t want this on your wall till the day you die. I want you to decide when you’re going to take that portrait off the wall. So give it to that child to start their family.

Tim Walden: So whether they do it or not, it’s up to them, but connecting them to our photography is something more than just recording their face or even creating an excellent photograph beyond that. That’s key, I think, to actually adding the layers of love and depth and texture to your brand.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. And the letter, I think I’ve always thought, that’s such a brilliant thing. So let’s talk about some other layers. I think so much of what you just said, building in meaning and layers into the image itself. So as you’re talking about it, as you’re shooting it, as you’re directing the client, while they’re being shot, that’s a whole experience itself. Even backing up from that in the consultation you’re talking about, this is how we will do it and what is important to you. And so all of those things, and those layers don’t cost anything. They’re not pretty paper, they’re not fancy packaging. They’re not sparkling water on a tray, all of which we do. We do all of those things too.

Tim Walden: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: But I feel like the core, it’s like you said, the authenticity in the relationship, the authenticity in planning the image, the authenticity in executing the image and the experience that they have during that. All of those layers is really just a communication and an authenticity. And then what it’s wrapped in… I do want to talk about what it’s wrapped in. I do want to talk about do you do a snack tray? We want to talk about all those things. But I think without that, it goes back to that manipulation, right? It’s just like a fancy cherry on top, but you don’t have the underlying meaning.

Tim Walden: Yeah, you have to learn people’s stories before you tell them. It’s like I was talking to a client just a few hours ago, and I said, one of the things that has surprised me all these years is that what I do before a portrait affects the outcome of the portrait. It determines the level of success that we have in this creation. And if you show up and we run in the camera room and that’s the end of it, neither of us are going to be at our potential. So what I do beforehand is key to what I do in that camera room. So I learn those stories, I learned their personalities. There may be a time you want a child to be really quiet and you don’t… That represents who they are. There may be a time where they snuggle into a parent and you’re not in the room.

Tim Walden: And there’s other times where it’s a matter of harnessing in this wild horse that’s inside of this child is showing that in some way. And so I have to learn those things to be able to go in and do it. And I think as we do coaching and teaching, the thing that I think is one of the hardest is learning how to connect people to the people they love based on their story and doing it in a way that doesn’t fracture the flow of that session. It could be the way they look at each other, the way they touch. And I’m always balancing that motion and connection. And those are the two things I complain about the most when I critique, is more motion, more connection, more feeling.

Tim Walden: And those are things that I can calculate to a degree, but without knowing the story, I can’t execute those to the next level. So that comes in our design appointment, it comes in paying attention to that, and I’ll tell clients, “I’m not so much concerned about what you look good in or whatever. I’m concerned about how things translate.” And so everything is a style decision at Walden’s.

Tim Walden: If it’s a relationship portrait, then the clothing bows its knee to the ability to be able to work quickly and to work spontaneously. If it’s a color study, maybe more calculated, then we attack it in a way that lends itself to that vision. But we start with the end in mind. I want to get to know people. Show me snapshots of your kids. I want to see them, send them to me. I put them in my software, I pull them up, I look at them.

Tim Walden: What’s your favorite thing about your husband? What’s your favorite thing about your son, your daughter? And you’ve heard me say it this, a chapter in your life. What’s the bold print? So I’m listening to the things they say, and it’s so amazing that somehow, we always get it. It’s never so linear. It’s not like a composite. I don’t do composites. It’s not like I’m taking these elements to tell a story in a literal fashion. It’s usually in just body language. It’s in nuances, and I can’t see or find those nuances if I don’t understand who it is in front of my camera.

Allison Tyler Jones: So when you said with the students that you’re mentoring, you referenced the hardest thing for them to learn… So what element of that do you feel like is the hardest to get?

Tim Walden: Well, connection, I think, is one of the hardest because you want to connect people in a way, a father to a son, or a daughter in a way that’s-

Allison Tyler Jones: Connecting the clients to each other. Is that what you mean?

Tim Walden: Yeah. Physically connecting them and getting them in a place where they don’t feel like they’re on a stage. And I’m very particular about… You and I have not experienced this side of each other. And when I’m in a camera room, I don’t want people in there. I won’t let them in there. And I avoid insulting anybody by dealing with all this ahead of time. I’ll say, “Allison, your daughter. I know she’s crazy about you. She loves you. She’s a good girl. No problem, right?” But I will say that when you’re in the room, she responds differently. She might answer me, but look to you or she might wonder what you think about her answer. See, compliant children generally over-comply and rebellious children a lot of times, will rebel.

Tim Walden: So if I have a clean slate and I only have the people I need in that room or in that environment, then I can create in a way that I think is organic and it’s authentic. And so I think this is hard for a lot of photographers because it is a balance of emotion and technical excellence. I’m trying to put those two together. So I always tell people, capture, adjust, refine. Anybody that’s followed my coaching, they’re tired of hearing that. But I told them, it’s like when you see magic, capture it. Don’t talk about it. The shirt’s crooked. Don’t fix it. Take this thing and photograph, right? But be aware of what is the biggest problem.

Tim Walden: So you go in, you adjust that biggest problem, and if the magic is still there, you take that one. And then if there’s a refinement level, feathering your light, getting dad a little bit taller, leaning in a little more from the waist, and you see the magic hasn’t gone, you can hold it, throw the others away, take that, but never do it at the cost of that story and that emotion. So it’s a battle between those two people in my head, dad’s saying, “You bend the wrist this way or you do that.” And those things, I’m not making light of those. Those are important. They really help the image, but not at the expense of telling the story. So capture, adjust, refine. If you get to the refinement stage, send that one-off for competition. I can impress other photographers with that one. They’ll be like, “Wow, you did a great job.” But they don’t see maybe the one that’s the most meaningful one sometimes. But that was absorbed. Some of those things were absorbed by the emotion and it tells a story and it’s hanging on the wall.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Well, and I think what I’m hearing, and this is probably just my personality reading between your lines, is what’s hard for many photographers is they feel nervous to take control during a session. I think it’s so much easier ahead of time to say, “Okay, this is how it’s going to go. And I don’t want you to be offended when I do this, but this is what’s going to happen.” And then remind them, and they’d be willing to maybe have somebody back on their heels just a little bit when you say, okay, like you said, she’s responding differently to you, so I’m going to have you step out. We’ll bring you back in when, whatever. But taking the responsibility. If you have enough experience that you can see that it’s going to make a difference in that image, then you have to do it.

Tim Walden: Yeah. And I rarely would find that it wouldn’t help. And a lot of this depends on the age. And I understand I’m making a blanket statement, but it’s true more than it’s not true. That a parent in that room is an issue even if things don’t seem to be going wrong and they’re not going wrong, but it’s got a little twist that leaves that absolute point of magic out. We use three words right now in our marketing and it’s story, beauty and magic are the three that we try to weave in. And the magic is what I’m talking about. That’s finding the story amidst all of the things that go on. And so that magic is, I see it, I know it, I can recognize it, but I can’t make it. I can only make the environment that nurtures that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.

Tim Walden: And I make the environment and I look for it and I welcome it. And when I see it, I push the button. I’m so comfortable in my own skin anymore. It took a while to do that. And I would encourage photographers that you know more than you think you know. Even though, I think as human beings, sometimes we want to say, “Allison, I got so far to go. I’m not really good.”

Tim Walden: You know what? They chose you. And you’ve got skill sets. And yes, you have a ways to go. We all do, but you still need to be the one that when they choose you for the right reasons, when you’re drawing people because they recognize your brand and yourself, then you need to command that room. To be able to walk in and command that room. I’ve trained several photographers that worked with me and many of them, 22, 23-year-old girls, 25-year-old girls. I’m like, “What’s going to happen when you go in the room with an alpha dog that’s 45 years old? Can you command that room? If you can’t… We’re not picking a camera up until I know you can do that.” And so, you’re so right, it’s such an ability to be able to go in and to be able to take command with the right… I’m not talking about bossiness. I’m talking about commanding by being on stage. And I tell a client, every portrait is a performance.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Tim Walden: And we’re looking for that climax. We’re looking at those magic moments and we’re going to find them. But these are the things it takes to accomplish that. So I would encourage people, if you don’t feel like you’re there, you’re there more than you think you are. Continue to focus on it and find creative ways to do the things that will make that happen more often than not happen.

Allison Tyler Jones: And if you have to even sometimes fake it till you make it, I think there’s something to that. Also, if you realize that the client is paying you for that as much as they are paying you for your technical excellence, they are not paying you to stand there with a camera and say, “Okay, so what do you think? What do you want?” And then just point your camera in a different direction and you’re the one pushing the button. No. They’re paying you to be the ringleader, the performance art, whatever it’s going to take to get those images to wrangle their kid, to wrangle their husband, to wrangle them. Because most of our clients are women, at a stance that they look at their most flattering. And that’s actually a really good place to start, I find.

Allison Tyler Jones: If I feel like you get a new client in, and this is for those of you who maybe are having a hard time “being controlling” in the room is, a good place to start when you’re talking with your clients, is letting them know how it’s going to go. But then just say, “Okay, so here’s the thing, what looks good on you in your clothing in real life, and you know how to deal with these kids in real life, but you don’t know how to deal with them in my world, which is in the studio, with lights, with camera. So when it comes to what you’re going to wear, that outfit might be darling for real life, but on camera, I have to be the one to tell you.” And you watch them, they’re like, “Oh.”

Allison Tyler Jones: Now they’re perking up their ears. You’re going to tell me what to wear so it looks flattering? I am all ears. I will do whatever you say. And so if you have to start there, that’s probably a good layer to start with, right? To establish yourself. Nobody wants to look fat in a picture, so start with fat.

Tim Walden: Well, it’s how it translates, and that’s the words that we use. It’s like, yes, you look great in polka dots and stripes, you look wonderful in that.

Allison Tyler Jones: So cute.

Tim Walden: But that is not what’s going to translate into an amazing portrait

Allison Tyler Jones: At the Kentucky Derby all day long, in the Walden Portrait studio, no.

Tim Walden: No. That’s right. And I think a lot of that comes from… When you’re in the room, you’re telling people the truth. So being confident should be easy. It is easy for me is to say, yeah, you look wonderful in these things, but the translation of a still image is totally different than when you walk into a room with a group of people when we’re out for dinner with a lot of friends. Totally different translation. So we need to make, because that’s my world, as you say, and that’s what the decisions that we’re going to make today. And I’ll tell them, of course for me, I’m more of an all my eggs in one basket type of photographer. I’m like, we’re smart people. Let’s put all the right pieces together and then let’s let the variety be in the magic that happens.

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.

Tim Walden: The stories are told. I don’t want four outfits and five backgrounds. You know what?

Allison Tyler Jones: Variety is not our friend.

Tim Walden: No, I consider that kind of variety an enemy of creativity, and you’ve heard me use that term. I tell a client, creativity has enemies. We’re going to talk about what those enemies are. And the reality is, there’s a point where every photographer looks alike. I don’t care how many degrees you have, how long you’ve been in business, there’s a point where you can all start looking alike. And so variety can be one of those things. The right kind of variety, however, is mom with son, son with dad, son alone, family together, the interaction that’s happening. And then you build this cohesive design element into your art too, where… And listen, I’m preaching to the choir, to you, talking about designing walls and portraits, I feel I’m outclassed in this conversation.

Allison Tyler Jones: No. Oh my gosh. Don’t be ridiculous.

Tim Walden: But it is. We’re designing this to be able to make one bold and powerful statement in your home, not one that just a potpourri of confusion. So we want to be able to make that statement. And so we keep the clothing simple, we keep the background simple, but we look for variety in those nuances. Then we can add depth to the storytelling by using multiple images. And because I couldn’t tell your story in a chapter, I need a whole book to tell Allison’s story because there’s so many wonderful sides to you. There’s all these great sides to you. I need more chapters to tell your story, but it all has to flow well together. It has to fit. And so that’s what’s happening in the camera room. I’m telling your story. I’m using all these chapters together, but it has to flow the way a great story is told. And so this is why we’re making these decisions today.

Allison Tyler Jones: I think when you’re newer or unsure because I don’t think it’s necessarily a new thing. I’ve seen new photographers that are very confident and can just take control and command the room from the get-go. And then photographers that have been shooting for many years and feel like, I feel like my work isn’t evolving. I feel like it looks like everybody else’s, because I’ve basically let my clients call all the shots. They come in here with their Pinterest boards and show me that this is what they want. They want to be out in the meadow or the railroad tracks, or they want to change into these 75 outfits or whatever. So I think, like what you said, having your, I don’t know what’s the word, your mantra or your why, of what it is that is… For you, you would probably have a different why for each one of your product lines, your why for your black and white relationship portraiture is going to be different than the others.

Allison Tyler Jones: For me, my why is always art that happens to be your family. So it’s that I want to create a piece for them so that when it’s on the wall and somebody walks into their home, that when somebody walks in, a friend then says, “Oh my gosh, that’s your family.” But if they walk in and say, “Oh, your family’s beautiful,” then I feel like I failed in some way because I’m always shooting for the, it was cool. It was a piece of art first. Like you said, there’s a storytelling element to it. So people will say, “Well, can we go on location?” I say, “Well, look what I’m creating, I don’t care about the environment, I just care about the people and the relationships between them.” So removing that variable. And then when you try to change clothes, so how do you handle when someone says, “Can we do multiple outfits?” What do you say about that? How do you shut that down?

Tim Walden: Well, depending on the style that we do with color studies, we might do one or two, but with black or white relationships, the answer is every decision’s a style decision. Telling your story is dependent on certain things being intact. And those things are the clothing balances that need to the story, to the body language, to the nuances. Anything else, it fractures the story. And so no, we want to avoid doing that.

Tim Walden: Now, I will say this and because your question, it makes me smile and it makes me search for an answer a little bit. And I hate to say this, but it is the honest truth. We don’t face that a lot. And the reason we don’t is we stay the course. We know who we are, we draw the people that see our work. It stays consistent. And I think one of the things I would encourage photographers is to say that when you create gaps between the masses, you talk about going on location, doing all this variety, staying in the studio, and then you stay consistent, you build clarity into your brand, and then you begin to push the creative parameters within that clarity of who you are and what you do, it’s much easier to bring people along on exactly where you want them to go because that’s all you’re showing them, right?

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly.

Tim Walden: And they’re choosing you for the right reason. So sometimes when they say, “What do you say when this happens?” I could actually stumble there because I like, “Well, it doesn’t happen.” But then if I say that it feels cocky or it feels like you’re telling them that they’re doing it wrong, but the reality is this path leads to this destination.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. And that’s what I wanted you to say. So that’s exactly right. So the reason I ask that is because listeners who have not been staying the course, who are nice and kind and love their clients and want to give them multiple options and want to give them all the things that they think clients should have, they don’t want to be bossy. They don’t want to be controlling. They want to give too many options. That actually, to be controlling is to be kind in this instance. And that if you do stay the course, you don’t get the questions anymore.

Tim Walden: Right. Right.

Allison Tyler Jones: They quit asking because you’re not even showing it, first of all. That’s number one. So those of you who are thinking of making a pivot and you want to make a change and you want to become more controlling in a good way, and you want to lock your brand or your style down, number one, quit showing anything that you don’t want to do, right?

Tim Walden: Amen. Yes, absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: Don’t even put it… Not in a gallery. Nowhere. Not on the wall,

Tim Walden: Not on your website, not on Facebook.

Allison Tyler Jones: Take it home to your house. Put it in the garage. Do not show it. Number two, just talk about what you do. What I would say when somebody asks me, “Now, do we do multiple outfits?” Because people will still ask me that. They’ll say, “So do we need to bring them?” If they’re a new client. Should we bring more than one outfit? And then, because I don’t want to say no to people, I say, “Well, you could, but here’s what happens. You have the expression and the magical moment will happen in the least favorite outfit.”

Tim Walden: Yeah. Amen. That’s a great answer to that too. And it absolutely is true.

Allison Tyler Jones: So true.

Tim Walden: Because you’re smarter than you think you are, speaking to the people listening to this, and you have to trust yourself to make decisions. If you make a mistake, make an adjustment. But make the mistake of don’t making a decision. And that’s important. And my definition again, and Allison and I, we get a chance to talk occasionally, so forgive me, Allison, if I bore you stuff, but great brands, in my estimation, they form people’s expectations and then fulfill them. Ultimately that is my definition, is if I’m forming expectations, then fulfilling them becomes easy. There is no better photographer than me of an expectation I formed because that’s what they’re coming for, right? There may be better photographers, but I have formed that expectation, then I can fulfill it.

Tim Walden: So when you’re everything to everybody, then you’re relinquishing I think, your art, you’re relinquishing… People begin to shop price and location. They take a greater lead in the entire thing because they don’t see identity. And I talk about five keys of a successful style. The first one’s clarity, and the fifth one is consistency. Those two, they anchor what I would consider five keys to a successful style. So clarity and consistency, the front and the back end of that. And so it’s okay for you to-

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, now I have to hear the other three.

Tim Walden: Well, clarity number one, right? Technical excellence, because that makes the photography invisible and it allows the story to rise to the top. The third and probably the center of the whole thing is the magic, the story, the purpose, the emotion. That is the magic pixie dust. The fourth is investment worthiness. Is your work investment worthy? Are you burning a bunch of files and you can get them retouched for 50 bucks? If that’s the case, I’m not seeing… Well, I probably shouldn’t-

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And it’s not the client that’s deciding whether it’s investment worthy, it’s you deciding that it’s investment worthy.

Tim Walden: That’s right. And so all that comes both in printed art, but it comes in style. Does it stand the test of time on your wall? Is it worthy of your wall? Or is it a pick that you have running off and you’re using words like, oh, it’s a pick, it’s a snap, and we can put it on… All of these time to investment worthiness and then the fifth is consistency. So I always tell people, clarity, technical excellence, the magic or the emotion, investment worthiness, and then consistency. You need to measure your brand and your style by those five things. The two that are the hardest are the first and the fifth in my mind.

Allison Tyler Jones: Clarity and consistency?

Tim Walden: Yeah. Clarity and consistency. Because clarity is like, well, yeah, but I like what Allison does, or yeah, I like what Tim does. Well, we should learn from each other, but we can’t be each other. I’m a bunch of people, but I’m still me. I still own where I’m at because all these people have spoken into me and my art, but I am who I am and I’m comfortable there. When I start comparing myself to other people, I can get an inferiority complex because I can’t be them. And then I see they’re excellent, and we know a lot of these people and we look at them and I’m like, “I wish I could do that. I wish I could do that.”

Tim Walden: Well, in trying to do that, you become like gelatin. There’s no solid. There’s no solid side that you are. So clarity is part of it. And then consistency is hard because we’re in an industry that, oh, well, my neighbor got a photo and they were jumping off of something in the backyard and got this great snap and pic, and can you do that? Well, no, I can’t do that. Don’t want to do that. I’d say, go to your neighbor. Because to me, finding that clarity, building that consistency, sandwiching it between technical excellence, emotion and investment worthiness, now you’re on track for a successful brand.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Oh, I love that. And when you were talking about just before you went into that five things, I was thinking that if that’s not real solid in your head, if it’s not baked into my bones, to me, when I feel like once it’s settled into my bones, I can sell it, I can talk about it. I don’t feel apologetic, I feel very confident. I just don’t feel unsettled about it at all. But when you’re not settled and when you are still not trying to be all things to all people, it’s like fear. A dog can smell fear on you. What that attracts, the kind of clients that attracts is bossy, pushy people who want to run it and don’t trust you to do it. They’re looking for somebody to boss around because they don’t trust anybody.

Allison Tyler Jones: And actually, those are the worst clients, are people that cannot trust somebody else. The very best clients are the ones that are just like, “Tim, tell me what to wear. Give me the list of all the things. We’ll show up and do it exactly what you want. You want me in the room, you want me out of the room? Just tell me what needs to happen.” And you can do your best work for those clients because they trust you. You’re not feeling them looking over your shoulder and second-guessing anything.

Tim Walden: Right. They’re the best in every way.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Tim Walden: They’re the best in every way. They’re the best in spending. They’re the best in appreciating your work. They’re the best in coming back because loyalty, I think a lot of times has died in today’s environment. But when you create the things we’re talking about, it’s recreated through this buzz and so forth. So they’re the best customers because they return, they refer. I call them the golden R’s, return and referral. All of those things are happening, and they’re happening with the people wanting to do what you do and what you’re excellent at when you define those things. And so it’s not arrogance, it’s providing art at the next level when you accomplish that, and then people recognize that and they come, and if they don’t come, it’s probably not the right fit and they’re wanting something else. And you’re better off working toward the ones that do want that. And those are going to come through the things we just talked about.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and they can’t trust what they don’t understand. So if you’re over wishy-washy, well, we could do that. What do you think? Well, we could do that. What do you… And you never have a center of like, oh no, this is how I see it. This is what we should do. Then there’s nothing to trust. So you can’t build the trust. So that is, to me, the core of the layer of love. That’s the foundation. The bedrock that you’re building everything else on, is that trust. And then once they trust, they’re not asking about price. Everybody cares about money. Nobody wants to spend crazy, but down to everything, I’m sure you’ve had clients say to you, when I say, “Okay, well I was thinking we would do this frame, what do you think?” And I’ve had clients say, “Oh, no, no, don’t ask me what I think, you’re the boss of me. You tell me what it’s supposed to be.”

Tim Walden: I think we instigate that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.

Tim Walden: I think we instigate, and that goes back to that quote I talked about is, if you’re sincere praises are fact. But I think you could also turn that around and say, “If you’re sincere, directing people is effective and it’s not manipulative because you are directing them toward a result that you know they’re going to be happy with.” I’ve never had anybody come back and say, “Well, I wish I hadn’t bought that. I wish I hadn’t bought it in that size. I wish I bought something small or whatever.” They’re like, “I wouldn’t take anything for those images.” So I am leading people down the right path. I have no qualms about that.

Tim Walden: So if it comes from sincerity, then you need to have that confidence because confidence and cockiness are not the same thing. And I think this is where people misunderstand. They think, oh, if I’m confident, I’m cocky. Well no, choose one. And I would choose confidence. I’m very-

Allison Tyler Jones: For sure.

Tim Walden: But I don’t think anybody feels manipulated. And that’s never the course here at Walden’s. But I do lead them exactly down a path because I know what that result’s going to be. I know how they’re going to respond to it the day they pick it up, and I know they’re going to respond to it every day, month, year after that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, let me ask you a question. When somebody asks you, let’s go to the salesroom. So let’s get out of the camera room and the clothing and everything. Let’s go to salesroom. So we’ve shot it. You’re selling with suggestions, we both do that, a little differently, but very similar. Here’s your walls, this is what I think you should have. And they want to do something that you absolutely know is going to be not good. Okay? So do you have an example of that? Has somebody wanted to do something that you were just like either maybe it’s going to be way too small, not right for the wall. Do you have an example of that? How do you reign that back in or bring that around or be really honest without being cocky? So where does confidence and trust?

Tim Walden: Well, I think the picture you paint for them in the salesroom and the context is the key to that. Having the photos of their walls, being able to show them these things. I think the other thing is, I use their words to make the sale. And that’s important. You remember what you told me about your daughter? You remember what you told me about your son? That’s why I think this image, when you walk in your home, the first thing that you see is this story told. I see that in these images. And if somebody goes, “Well, Tim, that’s a lot of money. What if I step it down a size?” I always tell them, I say, “Listen, size is not going to affect quality. I’ll tell you what size affects. Size will affect the visual impact and it will affect the role your art plays in your home. How big do you want this story told and how impactful it is?”

Tim Walden: I’ve heard people say you don’t put a wristwatch on your wall or a grandfather clock on your wrist, right? So there’s an appropriateness to it. And so I’ll tell them, honestly, “I think if you reduce that size, we need to find another spot for it because I don’t think it’s going to work there.” I’m happy to do that. I never want anybody to feel cornered. I’ve never heard anyone say, “This feels like pressure or I shouldn’t…” I never that. I’m like, “Sure, we can make a move. Let’s talk about what that affects, right?” And I’ll tell them a story. I’ll say, “Listen…” And I told somebody years ago, and I think I’ve told you this, when they talk about the money side, a lot of times you’ll say, the day you pick up your work, it’s worth every penny you pay, but it holds its least value on that day.

Tim Walden: How many people can tell you that what they’re providing for you will absolutely grow in value? And that’s what photography does when it’s done right, when it’s investment worthy, like we talk about. And I use those terms with clients. I tell clients what I tell photographers. I don’t hide all this. This is part of investment worthiness. So I tell them truthfully. But if they want to make a change, I’ll say, “Well, let’s look at it. Let’s talk about it. And then I will paint the picture. That’s absolutely realistic. And then of course, we’re using ProSelect and we’re showing the work. I think that’s the greatest thing since sliced bread is context. We never had context in sales.

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.

Tim Walden: Forgive me, and probably people might get mad at me, but if I had to choose between my laptop with their walls versus just projecting an image in a darkened room, I am for my laptop.

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.

Tim Walden: Because there’s no question, is this the right size? The question is, are you going to make this investment in this particular piece of art? So context is everything, and we have that today. So we make sure that we get multiple walls and images and I think showing it, telling the story, do you remember the story you told me, Allison, about your daughter? That’s what is going to be seen when they walk in. And the other thing about size I’ll tell people is when you walk in the house, leave the lights off for a minute, just leave the lights low. And I want the first thing that you see to be the people you love in the most powerful and impactful, possible way. And size affects that. Size affects visual impact. It affects how your story is told, the boldness and extent. So that’s not a specific story, but that is the way I would chat with someone.

Tim Walden: And the other thing is there’s times where I have their walls and I’ll downsize an image. I’d love to go larger with it, but if it’s not right for that area, you’ve got to be honest. But honestly-

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. You have to have integrity about that.

Tim Walden: Yeah. Honesty usually works in your favor because most people underestimate. I want a real big 10 by 13 for over the sofa, right?

Allison Tyler Jones: Right.

Tim Walden: And that’s their life experiences that’s coming back to be, oh yeah… I won’t name the place, but such and such a studio in 1980 and got a really big 10 by 13. When you say, “Allison, what do you want?” And Allison’s not the photographer I’m talking to, she’s just a mom that wants an amazing portrait. I just told Allison, I said, “What do you want?” I told Allison, “You’re the expert, not me.” That’s a terrible position to put you in. I would show you the result of your art, all the decisions made, and then you can direct or we can go another way and have the ability to have those conversations in that salesroom.

Allison Tyler Jones: I always love to listen to how you say things because you have such a… Your words are so… Part of it’s being southern, but also part of it, there’s a prestige and you’re not trying to be Rodeo Drive. You’re not trying to be who you’re not. You’re speaking from an artist’s vernacular and using artist terms and words. And so I think that’s very true and that’s very authentic to you. And how I would speak to that same situation. So somebody says, “Okay, well, I don’t want it that big.” And we’re looking at it, and like you said, and you can see to make this go smaller, it visually is going to not be good.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so my vernacular is probably a little bit more blunt. So I would say, “Look, I would hate for you to dumb it down because it’s still not cheap to go smaller. You’re still paying a few thousand dollars for this, and then it doesn’t have the impact. So you’ve spent all this money and then it doesn’t look right. So let’s look at another space. Let’s look at another place where it will have the impact that you want.” So I think it’s just interesting to hear maybe two different ways to say something and then somebody listening to this that you’re going to say that in your own way. What feels in your bones that you can say over and over again, that is true, that is integrity for you, that you’re not trying to sound like Tim Walden. You’re not trying to sound like me, you’re yourself. I think that’s so important too because that’s builds the trust.

Tim Walden: You and I are doing the same thing. We’re just, like you say, we’re doing the same thing. We’re talking to them about how that art is represented in their home, what size matters in what locations and all. But we do it, like you say, with our own comfort level. I’ve always been of that mindset in the salesroom, but also in design appointment. I don’t script things. I bullet point them. And even phone calls. When I’ve trained people on the telephone, I don’t want them reading a script, but I want to bullet point, what are your goals in that phone call? What are your goals and what questions are you answering that were never asked? And I think that’s another thing. Is like people don’t ask certain questions, but those questions remain. Is this the right time to do this? Is this a good idea? Maybe I should wait.

Tim Walden: So a lot of times, they won’t ask that question or how much is an 8 by 10, right? They might ask that one. But I’ll always say, on a phone call, are you the right person? Is this the right place? And is this a good idea? You need to answer those three questions and they’ll probably never be asked. Nobody is going to say, is ATJ’s the right place for me to call. And then if it’s not you on the phone, it’s someone else, they need to be the right person. That person represents you. Sorry, are you the right person? And is this a really a good idea? Those questions are rarely asked, but they need to be answered. And so that has to be part of the conversation because the unasked questions sometimes can be detrimental. I guess I’m off-topic.

Allison Tyler Jones: No, that is it. The thing that I love about this conversation is it went in a completely different direction than what I thought. And I’m so glad because-

Allison Tyler Jones: I think we get hung up. I really do feel like we get hung up because that photographer that asked me that question, I think what she meant was tell me more about all the things you do, like the packaging and the experience and all the things that you’re buying, that you’re paying, that cost you money to make the experience better. And of course, there are those things, but those are not what it’s about. The ultimate attraction in any relationship, is to be in a relationship with somebody who knows, fully, who they are. Because when they know who they are, you know who you’re getting. So whether that’s a one-on-one marriage, or you can’t interact and have trust with somebody that you don’t even know who they are, and if they’re flipping around, everything you’re posting on Instagram every other day is like, we’re at the railroad tracks, we’re at the… It’s just very different every single time. I know I keep saying the railroad tracks, but whatever. If your style is flip-flopping around, and when you’re new, it does change, takes you a while to pick a lane. But-

Tim Walden: Clarity and consistency.

Allison Tyler Jones: Clarity and consistency.

Tim Walden: Yeah, those two, front and the back.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. When you know who you are, you don’t have to think about it. You don’t have to dance around. You don’t have to think, okay, how should I answer this question? You know the answers to the question.

Tim Walden: That’s right. That’s right.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. So going back to that dating, that relationship, you know what your deal-breakers are. I am not going to date a guy that does this or a woman that is… These are deal-breakers for me. We don’t even have that conversation.

Tim Walden: That’s right. And I think that’s fantastic. And then what we’re doing is we’re sending out that information to people ahead of time, and they’re choosing us for the right reason. This is who the Waldens are, this is what they do, this is what that experience is like. And then it gets some momentum, some legs under it, right?

Tim Walden: And so the clarity comes. And I think we talked about that and style. I think creativity works best in a box because I believe that’s when you start pushing the boundaries. How do you push the boundaries of the box if you’re never in one? If all you’re doing is a billion stinking things, right? And then creativity becomes an excuse for mediocrity. And I saw that when I taught at the University of Kentucky. I taught photojournalism and some of these students, they were brand new and they’re like, you give them a grade, they’re not happy with it. And they’re like, “Well, I’m just creative. He doesn’t understand.” No, that’s just bad.

Tim Walden: It’s like nothing personal, but that’s bad. And you need to take ownership of that. So creativity can be used as an excuse sometimes. And so I think in photography, we need to realize that when we find who we are, we put ourself in the box. It’s not going to be limiting. It’s going to be freeing because we’re going to start… I can look at a portrait and say, that’s Allison Tyler Jones. That’s great. But I can also look at one that’s similar and say, that’s not her, because it’s not pushing those parameters of that box. It’s not finessing the things that are there. And I’m hoping the same is true with us. And-

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.

Tim Walden: It took me a while to learn that. It took me a while to say, wow, this is who… And if I say Monet or Renoir or something, something comes to your mind. And so all of these things are important for us to have… That’s a service conversation. That’s a sales conversation. That’s a marketing conversation too, when you build that in.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I think it’s interesting. Well, I think it’s so fascinating too, and this is definitely going off-topic, but I want to bring it up anyway, is that I think to copy, it just will never be the same. Now, we know that when we’re talking about copying other photographers, but even trying to copy yourself, so I have one… For example, we just had one mom that we’ve done, she has four boys, and so her third senior in a row, so we photographed all of her high school senior kids. So we photographed the third one. Well, Stacey was shooting it and got Stacey convinced that that very first kid did this one certain portrait. And she’s like, “Okay.” We got so much. Everybody loved that picture. It was on the announcement and everybody just went crazy over it. And so we need to do that again.

Allison Tyler Jones: Stacey knows better. She knows, no. We do not repeat ourselves because this is a different kid. They have a different story, there’s a different why behind it or whatever. But the mom was just literally insistent that this happen. So she did shoot it and it was not the same. Now, she didn’t stop there. She went and pushed herself and did a creative portrait. But when I saw that, I was like, I called her in because I said, “You got to be kidding me. You tried to repeat.” She’s like, I know. I know. But the mom just would not back off. She just insisted.” But I said, “Can’t you see how it’s a weak copy? It just doesn’t have the intensity.” Even though she shot the other kid too. You know what I mean?

Tim Walden: Right. It doesn’t matter.

Allison Tyler Jones: You can’t even duplicate yourself.

Tim Walden: But the unveiling is gone when that happens. That verse was unveiled and it was an unveiling that just brought tears or laughter or whatever it might’ve been. You can’t unveil the same piece of art with a different head on it. You just can’t do that. And even if you did it exactly the same, there’s an anticlimactic feel to it. It doesn’t serve anybody well, and then those kids aren’t the same. So we’re looking for companionship in something hanging. We’re looking-

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Or consistency.

Tim Walden: Right.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, right.

Tim Walden: Consistency, but we’re not looking for identical replication of something. And even if you nailed it, they wouldn’t know you nailed it because the magic is worn off of that first. And so no, it’s a setup formula for a problem is what it is.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, yeah. Because you can become a victim of your own success too. I’m sure you’ve had people look at your website and come in and say, “Okay, that one where that guy’s holding the baby, I want to do exactly that.” And you’re like, “Okay, well, your kid’s hamster on acid and he will not hold still.” You got to… But again, that goes back to that trust and that layering of, to love a client, in my opinion, you have to guide them through the process. They don’t know our industry. They don’t know how it works. We’ve studied for years. We do know what looks good. And I think it’s encouraging what you said, you know more than you think you do. And so if you’re one of those that’s faint of heart and feeling like, I couldn’t ever say that, what could you say? What could you with confidence say today, right now?

Tim Walden: And accomplish the goal that we’re talking about. Yeah. You shouldn’t say what we say exactly how we say it. But again, that’s why I love to bullet point the way you deal with it. What are your goals in there? Your goals are to be confident. Your goals are to lead people, but then the way you do it is going to be different with each person. That’s so true. But you’re doing them a favor. Again, it’s the opposite of what you think. You think good service is letting people decide what you’re going to do. Well, that’s a formula for mediocre photography. It’s a formula for disappointment both for you-

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.

Tim Walden: And for that client, because they’re not qualified to tell you what to do, and you’re not qualified to do what they’re saying. You’re qualified to do who you are.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. I’m like fist bump in the air. Yes.

Tim Walden: I love it.

Allison Tyler Jones: And I’ve said it a million times, anybody that’s listened to more than two episodes of this podcast is like, “Is she going to use the surgeon analogy again?” But it’s true. Anybody that you go to that you are going to pay big money for or where the stakes are high, you’re going to die if they do it wrong, you don’t want to go in there and tell them how to do it.

Tim Walden: You’re going to use that scalpel?

Allison Tyler Jones: Right?

Tim Walden: That’s right.

Allison Tyler Jones: No.

Tim Walden: That’s right.

Allison Tyler Jones: No. There are people that do that, that will be like I saw on WebMD that it’s supposed to be this, this, and this. And it’s like, but a smart surgeon or a smart healthcare provider will say, “That’s cute.” And I will say this to my clients. I have said, so again, a little snarky and a little bossy. “Okay, that’s great. Don’t quit your day job. I’m going to handle the portraits. You go write some more contracts so that we can afford more pictures.”

Tim Walden: I love it. Now, that’s pure Allison Tyler Jones right there. And I love every bit of it. It makes me smile and it’s so true. That’s so true.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s true. It’s true.

Tim Walden: Yeah, it’s true.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s the oldest child.

Tim Walden: Yeah. I think you’re doing people a favor with your education and the way you share it with them and these truths that we’re talking about, and we want to see other artists succeed. And it’s not what you think it is a lot of times. There had to be a chapter in a book I wrote, it’s not what you think it is.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s so true.

Tim Walden: Because it’s not. And sometimes, we wrap it all around kindness, and it’s not respectful to tell people, no, no, you’re wrong there. Because it is. And I think for us, it was all birthed out of, as I told you, act of desperation, going broke when took over from my father, and then we accidentally tripped right into the right thing to do.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, baloney.

Tim Walden: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: No, I don’t… Okay, so actually, that experience, I think highlights exactly what we’re talking about is that you had a through line. You had a dad who had this ability with people, to see people, to love on people. He had layers of love before that was ever a thing, but the sales and marketing wasn’t there. And you needed the money. It needed to be a sustainable, profitable business for you to take it over. And so you kept the core, the DNA of that brand, which was the love, and you made that about the clients, made that about their story. But then you came in and said, this is who we are and this is how we’re going to do it. And so that, I was just making notes here. We think when we first come in, the customer’s always right. What have we been told in all the business books? The customer’s always right. Clients want options, and I want to be nice. And so in order to truly be nice-

Tim Walden: You do want to be nice.

Allison Tyler Jones: Of course you want to be nice, you want to be kind. You have to be the fullest version of who you are, but early and let them know, this is who I am and this is how I do it. So that if they don’t want that… You always say, I’m going to quote you to you. “It’s more important for them to understand what I do than for them to like it. And if they understand it, then they will decide to go away or not.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And then you bring them into the world, into the Tim Walden world, and this is how the Tim Walden world works, and this is how you get the best result from your unique family and my unique ability combined. This is how the magic happens, is we layer that all together.

Tim Walden: Absolutely. And you are doing them a favor. And that’s the nice and the right thing to do, like you say, is when you lead them. It’s just, I do think there’s so many people out there that have tripped over themselves because they’re afraid and misunderstand like you say, this is what service is, asking people what they want and all of those things. And it’s really not. And I think when you learn that, you’ll reach all new heights, you really will because it will take you places and you’ll start seeing clearly that, hey, I am nice. I’m doing a fair…

Tim Walden: People like to be led by confident people. Where the problem is, is if you disappoint at the end where you lead them in the wrong way. And I think that happens more when you don’t know who you are or what you’re doing, and that’s when you’re leading them the wrong way because you’re being things you’re not, you’re jumping through hoops. You’re a general practitioner and they need a specialist. And so, all of those things will take them exactly to that place. And people love to be led when they’re led down a path that provides for them all the things that you’re telling them you’re going to provide with all the years of defining your brand, establishing your style, wrapping all the things, the experiences around it, then you’re forming expectations and fulfilling them.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yep. That’s the layers. I love it.

Tim Walden: Yes. Me too. Me too.

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re the master. Well, thank you for sharing all of that with us. I don’t think you can hear it enough. And I think even for me, I’ve heard you talk about that. I’ve been in rooms. I have notes and notebooks that are right here on my desk that have your notes from your programs that you’ve given. But you just need to hear it again and again because even as long as I’ve been in it, doing this for almost 20 years, next year it’ll be 20 years, there’s still things that come up that make you doubt sometimes that you’re like, well. There’s always going to be somebody that gets through, or who’s going to ask some question that sets you back and then you think, does this still apply? And it does.

Tim Walden: Well, and I think sometimes, we nod that yeah, we understand. And then the reality is not proving that out. Because I know I’ve done some coaching and you know, if I’ll go someplace, I go in, I’ll say, “Now, why are you doing that?” I’ll say, “Here, let me show you.” And I’ll say, “Oh, that’s what you meant. Right?”

Allison Tyler Jones: Right.

Tim Walden: So hearing these things over and over, coming from climbing the mountain from all the different sides will take us to those places that we need to be. But yeah, and I will say to all the people that follow you, it’s a gift. Following you is a gift. I think the way you do it, you practice what you preach. It’s just wonderful. I encourage everybody to stay the course. Hang on to everything you’re providing because we need it in this industry. We need to rise above the noise and this is the way to do it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you. Well, same back to you, friend. I appreciate all that you do, and we’ll keep just doing it together as long as we’re this side of earth, right?

Tim Walden: That’s right. Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I appreciate you more than you know.

Tim Walden: It’s a joy. God bless you guys.

Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at Do.The.ReWork.

 

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