Recorded: Welcome to the ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little ReWork. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the ReWork.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi friends, and welcome back to the ReWork. Today’s episode is a little longer than normal, but it is packed full of great information. We are going into the trenches of family portraits with Drake Busath of Busath Photography in Salt Lake City, Utah. And we are talking about all the ways that you can identify and develop your own directing style of how you direct a portrait session.
Allison Tyler Jones: Drake is a keen observer of Hollywood directors, Ron Howard, Clint Eastwood, Steven Spielberg, and he draws from that inspiration on how he directs his own shoots. We have a section toward the end of the podcast where we talk about our no-fail prompts that work almost every single time. How to deal with difficult kids when you have a kid that’s just willing to burn it down and everything in-between.
Allison Tyler Jones: Multi-gen sessions, kid sessions, how can you identify and develop your own directing style, keeping the energy up, providing your client with an amazing experience? How can you inject that style into the work itself so that it has meaning and longevity to where your clients are never going to take it off the wall, they’re going to love it forever? You’re going to learn all of those things. So, let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Well, I am thrilled to have Drake Busath back with us in the podcast studio. And Drake, you’ll be happy to know that your episode on marketing was one of our most downloaded episodes, one of the most popular.
Drake Busath: Wow.
Allison Tyler Jones: I know, right? So you always are self-deprecating. I think nobody knows who you are, but they do. At least ReWork listeners know who Drake Busath is. But for those two people that maybe have listened to this and haven’t listened to those other episodes, why don’t you tell who you are, where you are and what you do?
Drake Busath: I am surprised and very pleased to hear that. I’m a second generation portrait photographer. My father was Don Busath and he was a terrific portrait photographer. He was like me. He worked in the day where you did everything. Portraits was a part of your day. And then he finally opened his own studio 50 years ago. So we were celebrating, we’re now 51 years old. And at the time I was in high school and I grew up around it. So I feel like I’ve been around it for a long, long time and I had the same experience. I wanted to be something different than my father, as is usually the case.
Drake Busath: So I was an architectural photographer for a while. I did food labels, I did still life in the studio. I experimented a lot and finally landed on portraiture because I like a project that has a beginning and an end clearly defined. I’m not in a parking lot on a cherry picker trying to get this building just right, waiting for the clouds to part. And I like the fact that our clients have a limited attention span, and so there’s a clearly defined end.
Allison Tyler Jones: There’s an arc.
Drake Busath: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And that’s what I wanted to… I think what I was hoping that we could talk about today is that arc. With a family portrait session, what does that arc look like? You are very committed to a specific experience for your clients, as am I. And that experience is different, but still awesome and amazing.
Drake Busath: It is.
Allison Tyler Jones: And we actually share some clients, you’re in Utah and Arizona, so some of our clients go to you and then they come to me and then they go to you.
Drake Busath: You just referred a great family to us. Thank you. The guy having a reunion in Utah and-
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re going to love them.
Drake Busath: … we so appreciate that.
Allison Tyler Jones: The Burns are next level fun.
Drake Busath: Really?
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m excited that you get to do that.
Drake Busath: Well, we are so alike in so many ways, and yet our shooting style, our directing style is very different.
Allison Tyler Jones: So talk about that… Talk about the arc of that, what is it?
Drake Busath: Well, I could talk about your directing style all day because I respect, and I’ve watched you photograph a family. I’ve seen you in action. I learned so much from watching you, but mine is much of what, let’s start with, it’s calmer, quieter, and slower. Like my mind, the slow part, I mean.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, calm is right. It is calm. Fresh. I just feel like when I look at your work, it feels very fresh to me. Classic, but fresh.
Drake Busath: Yeah. Okay. So a lot of control in the sense that I’m liking classical principles like classical lighting. I really insist on it, and I will take the time to do that. But the fresh part, thank you. I’m just thinking the other day that the fresh part comes from absolute boredom. I cannot stand to do another stayed boring pose or expression, and it took me years to get to that point. I probably did a lot of boring poses, and I know I did before I finally just couldn’t bear doing it anymore. And can you relate to that, that absolute boredom drives you to creativity?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, I hate to be bored. So if I feel like I’m going there, then I have to change something up, whether it’s… I’m shooting in studio, so for me it would be a piece of furniture or… I would have to do something or some new lighting technique or… Just something to get me excited about walking back in there.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, especially once you master the craft, so to speak. I mean, I don’t know that we ever really totally master it, but you know what you’re doing and you can do it. It’s easy to just be like, “Okay, next.” When really it’s very special for them. They’ve spent all this effort to get dressed and bring their kids down there. And for some people it might be a once in a lifetime experience. And so I feel like we owe it to them to make it.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s always on my mind too. How can I make that special? So how I try to inspire myself is either some kind of physical thing to put in the picture that they can sit on that might pose them in a different way or be interesting, change my point of view, but then also really delve into that person to get a concept. What about you?
Drake Busath: Well, I think that comes with time and with the 10,000-hour concept. I think there’s this honeymoon phase at the beginning of the photographer’s career where everything looks great and new and exciting. And then for me, the boredom set in maybe 10 years in. Maybe before that, but where I needed something new, I needed to satisfy myself, not just the client. Because to be honest, clients are easily satisfied. They like things, even if I’m cringing at it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, they’re so in love with who’s in the picture. That goes a long way, right? Towards-
Drake Busath: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: When you look at your early stuff, and you think, “Oh my gosh, how did anybody pay me to do this?” But it’s because they absolutely love the person that was in that picture. But you can’t rely on that forever.
Drake Busath: Right. And you can’t rely on their critique either because the client, all they can see is their nose or their chin or their waistline or whatever it is that’s…. And so we really can’t be driven by customer’s opinion of our work. I mean, most of us are, I think. And that’s why I got involved in print competition at PPA and don’t do it now, kind of quit after a while because it felt like, I don’t know, gets to be a trophy collecting hobby or something.
Drake Busath: But at first it was important to get away from my client’s opinions and see things from my peers’ eyes. And now I feel like that’s one reason I like having a studio with a lot of us here, we have 12, 15 people on staff all the time. And I like bouncing our opinions around and, “Do you like this? Do you think this is too much?” And it’s funny because I’m pushing the envelope all the time style-wise because of the boredom factor.
Drake Busath: And my son, Richard, who’s our head photographer, will pull me back. “Whoa, you’re getting a little trendy there, Dad. Getting older. That’s a little over the top.” And so he’ll keep me… pull me back to the classical principles. We’re a good balance that way.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and to the brand really, I mean…
Drake Busath: Yes, that classical brand, people need to know what to expect. I should say that’s part of the reason for our longevity is people know what to expect. They come back for it year after year. And can I just bring up this concept that we are not a luxury brand built on my name or my father’s name? We are we. So all our branding starts with we in plural. We are a retail brand. I hate to say, what’s the word? Commodity brand. I don’t like that.
Allison Tyler Jones: No.
Drake Busath: But really I think that’s true of us to a great degree. But I like to think of us as a retail brand. I think of us comparing us to Nordstrom. You know what you’re going to get, you know the quality’s going to be good to Restoration Hardware. Where you depend on their style. “I don’t need to invent this from scratch. I’ll go and ask a designer.”
Drake Busath: But it’s retail. It’s not a luxury. I’m not buying a custom-made suit from the tailor that’s coming to my house down beyond a little pedestal in the bedroom. But I am going to go to Nordstrom and feel like off the rack I can get something and have it customized. So anyway, that’s what’s always in my mind brand-wise.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, it reminds me of a book that I read called Culinary Artistry, and they had this table in the book. I’m just talking about the different chefs, and one was a burger flipper, somebody that would work at Whataburger, McDonald’s, like that. And then there was this craft. So this was in a restaurant that wasn’t the highest end. It wasn’t Nouvelle Cuisine. It was like you could go and just know that everything on that menu was yummy, you were going to have a great time. It was cozy, it was just part of your family.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then the art column was like the celebrity chefs that it takes six months to a year to get in. You sit back in the kitchen, they just hand you things that they’re just dreaming up off of their stove and you’re having this transcendent experience. And so, I feel like I’m always a little bit between that craft. I would love to think of myself as the art, the chef that was like, “I tell you what you’re going to have and you’re going to love it.”
Allison Tyler Jones: So there’s part of me that is doing that. But I agree. I think that craft and, which is more like what you’re saying, the Nordstrom brand, it’s going to be beautiful. You can count on it. It’s going to be a great experience. They’ll never let you down. But it’s elevated. It’s not cold. It’s not TJ Maxx.
Drake Busath: Right. And there are some business reasons that drive that, by the way, not just my… Okay, part of it is my laziness that I don’t want to do everything. I never did, so I want people around me and I want other photographers and other artists here. And part of it is the idea that, “Oh, I would like to have a business that I could sell someday, or I could pass on to my children.” In my case like my father did.
Drake Busath: And he incorporated me very much into the business. I remember the day he said, “You should be signing your own name on these.” And so he was giving me props and forming that we attitude. It was no longer about him. So business-wise, I think that’s… And what if I go down? Which I have, I’ve had periods where I was too sick to work for a year or so. There’s some business advantages, there’s some downsides as well to not having that luxury name.
Drake Busath: But it’s funny that a lot of our clients think of us as a luxury brand, but we never put ourselves out that way. And I respect that, and I think that’s a beautiful business model. It’s just in our family business. And since I’m second generation, it didn’t happen for me. I went down this retail direction, but it is paying off now because I’m at that point where I can spend a lot less time here at the studio and things keep chugging along without me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love that. Well, and I feel like that’s going to resonate with a lot of our listeners too, because you hear so much about luxury, luxury, luxury, luxury. Everybody needs to be boutique, everybody needs to be luxury. And I don’t think everybody needs to be anything. I think you can figure out how you want to do your own business in the way that you want to do it that works for you. Either with your personality, your life, either people that are starting out solopreneurs are going to end up solopreneurs and they like it like that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Maybe many people that have expanded and got a few employees and decided they hated that, and they want the freedom to run and done and just not have to consider anybody else. And so, I think that’s a really good example of another way that you don’t have to be this high, high, high end, you can be… I still feel like, I think you’re right in that your clients think of you as more of a luxury brand than you think of yourself as a luxury brand.
Drake Busath: Right. And that’s great. I love that. I just love it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Because you’re in Utah. So I mean, you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting 10 photographers on any given street in that town, right? Everybody’s selling some digital files and…
Drake Busath: Oh yeah, we used to say that 20 years ago, and there’re more photographers than there are people, but it’s even crazier now. We have a little cabin in the mountains and it happens to be by a pretty meadow. And this meadow caught on on Instagram somehow. And so every time we drive by there, there’re at least six or eight, 10 photographers with their bride or their family or whatever. And it’s just remarkable how much business there is out there. Hey, I got us way off-topic though. We were talking about directing.
Allison Tyler Jones: We’re on topic. We’re on topic. That was like whenever I would walk outside in my studio during Christmas season, there would be two photographers out there doing photoshoots against the front of my studio, against the brick wall.
Drake Busath: Really?
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh yeah. All the time.
Drake Busath: Oh my.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. But I mean, it’s a public street, so there’s nothing I could do about it, but it’s just like, “Okay.” So yeah, it’s funny.
Drake Busath: We get that in our yard here too. We have photographers show up in the backyard with their clients sometimes.
Allison Tyler Jones: You got to be kidding me.
Drake Busath: No. Once we went out there and there was a wedding going on in the backyard. It’s fine, we don’t have big gates. It was cute. I kind of like it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, but you’re a much nicer person than I am, so that’s good. That’s good. We need all kinds. We need the brats in the world and we need the nice chill guys. Okay, so let’s go back to family portraits and how we approach it so that arc, that experience, and not just experience, but how do you get what you get? How do you… Looking at your work, and I’ve seen you work, but I want you to share with our listeners.
Drake Busath: Sure.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. How are you marrying that classic with that while still keeping it fresh?
Drake Busath: The first thing that comes to mind is this balance between control and collaboration with the client. The collaboration is the fresh part, the control is the classic part. And finding this balance. I remember early in my… It wasn’t too early. I bet it was eight, 10, I don’t know, maybe seven, eight years when I had this epiphany that I could control the client’s body completely. I had mastered the art of moving their arms, legs, feet, hands, head, neck. I could do all that verbally, and I could make them do anything I wanted them to do. And I was really repeating the same poses over and over again. With the family that took a few more years, I think, but I could control that too.
Drake Busath: And then I had this, let’s say an epiphany that, maybe I heard someone say this, that posing a portrait or working with a client should be a dance. You shouldn’t be forcing your will on it. I had an experience with a very famous photographer, I may have told you this before, where he was posing me in a demonstration in front of an audience, and I was just being the model. And he reached to turn my head the way he wanted it. He grabbed my nose and he used my nose as a handle.
Drake Busath: And it was just, I will never forget that moment, the discomfort that I felt being controlled like that. My neck hurt, I knew it, I wasn’t going to look good. I knew I wasn’t going to look good because I was being too controlled. And so when this idea finally dawned on me that it’s a dance and I’ve got to have their input, I started changing my verbiage a lot.
Drake Busath: Instead of saying, “Lean to your left,” I’d say, “Shift back. Shift your other foot. And now go back to where… go back to the other foot. That’s what I want right there.” And more so as a directing cue, I started to tell the client what I was after. “Here’s the story I want.” I’ll bet you do this all the time, “Here’s what I want this to look like. Here’s what I want happening.” I’m asking them to make that happen for me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so tell me, what does that sound… So when you say, “This is what I want it to look like.” What words are you using when you say that?
Drake Busath: Okay. I would say to a family, “Let’s turn you toward each other like you’re having a conversation, a real conversation. You’re not posing for me. Let’s turn you around so you can see each other. Can you see each other? So okay, I want you to be having a little conversation.” And I joke about it, “You’re out in the park. I’m sure you do this all the time. And then you glance over and you see there’s a photographer or me and you’re happy to see me.”
Drake Busath: All right, so here’s a little scenario I’m going to describe to… It’s a little thing. Or I might say, “I want to show how much you love your mom.” To a five-year-old. Or, “Dad, I want you to show how protective you are of this 12-year-old.” Okay, now he’s free to do… He’s got to do something with his hand. He’s not going to stand there with his hands dangling. He’s going to try to show me how protective he is. So just broad stroke direction like that is… And then he’ll do something and he’ll be wrong. But he knows the concept and I can correct it. I can say, “How about a little less choke hold? Uh-huh.”
Allison Tyler Jones: And they laugh and it loosens it.
Drake Busath: And it loosens. But I didn’t need to say in the over controlled method, “Let’s put your arms around Johnny.” Or, “Hold his shoulders with two hands.” I don’t want to be that specific.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Drake Busath: I heard somebody on a podcast talking about Clint Eastwood, that he was their favorite director and actor because Clint Eastwood just never says, “Action.” He never says, “Cut.” He says, “Okay, let’s start.” Some soft entrance like that. And he doesn’t do multiple takes and he trusts his actors more. And I want to be that guy, because I feel like we’re bound to get better stories happening, true stories in the portraits that will surprise me as the photographer. That’s what keeps me in this racket.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I think that’s-
Drake Busath: Being surprised.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. That expression and that personality is infinitely variable. The thing that I noticed too, watching you shoot is that the volume level is very low. You have a measured speech and you don’t really raise your voice. And so they have to almost lean to you to hear. Is that fair?
Drake Busath: Yeah. I think that’s probably fair.
Allison Tyler Jones: By design?
Drake Busath: It’s unintentional. No, it’s just how I speak and I’m glad it works for me sometimes. Other times it doesn’t. But I can get loud though, I can. We all learn skills that we don’t have naturally in the under pressure with the family, with children involved. I think the change of volume, I constantly telling our assistants this, that if you have the same volume throughout the session, that it becomes white noise to the children. And so we have to change the volume, and the assistant’s tendency is to be loud all the time. And I’m saying, “Whisper, take it down and then bring it back up and take it down so that they don’t get bored.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Keeping them up. I really do feel like a portrait session is 80% performance art on my part.
Drake Busath: Totally. Yes, totally.
Allison Tyler Jones: I do. When people leave and they look at me on the floor and they’re like, “Wow, you work really hard.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I do.”
Drake Busath: Are you ever jealous of people in a profession where they could go to work in a bad mood? They could just do their job and be in a bad mood. You’re like… It’s a standup comedian, isn’t it?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Because standup comedian, psychologists, child psychologist. Yeah. And so going back to what you were saying about telling the client what you’re after, “I want you to show me how much you love your five-year-old.” Or, “I want you to show me that you do anything to protect them.” I really love that. I don’t do it that way, but I think I want to try that. I think that’s really… I’m just trying to think, what do I do? So let’s say I was photographing you with your… Do you have daughters?
Drake Busath: I have one daughter and three sons, yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so let’s just say that you had more daughters. I said, “Okay, we’re going to do dad and the girls.” So I’m like, “Okay, this portrait is worship the father. Worship, worship. That’s what it is. And so we’re going to call this worshiping the father. So what does that look like?” So I might say something like that, and then of course, like you said, they’ll do it wrong. But they’re laughing and the dad’s cracking up because the girls are supplicating with their hands or having their hands as palm runs or some of are hanging on his leg or whatever. But it loosens it up. And it does make them think bigger than just like, “Okay, I’m in this picture and what do I look like?” They’re considering the relationship. You’re pointing them back to each other.
Drake Busath: Yeah, it’s a concept right? Now the attention is on the concept and off of them. Could you do that in your first five years of shooting or did you learn that slowly with time? That idea of, “Here’s the concept,” kind of directing style.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think that probably evolved because my own biological children are not neurotypical. I have had to learn a lot of ways to get behavior out of… that you cannot get through the normal way. Just telling them straight, “I need…” For example, with my son, I couldn’t just say, “Okay, you have to do it this way.” Or, “I need you to do this.” It would literally be like, “Okay, do you want to go to McDonald’s?” “Yes, yes.” “Okay, then we need to pick up your room,” or whatever. I had to dangle the carrot.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so I think that has really helped me with really hard kids, because I do have a little subspecialty and when the kid that is going to burn the whole thing down, that is literally going to throw you the bird and just burn it down. They don’t care. That’s my favorite kid.
Drake Busath: Really?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. I love that kid because I can always get that kid.
Drake Busath: And then the parents leave just in awe of you?
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, they’re just like, “I don’t even know how you did what you did.”
Drake Busath: Yeah. You’re a witch, right? They’re wondering if you-
Allison Tyler Jones: I have literally had kids run out of the studio, like a 13-year-old who was a little, I think spectrumy, and they said, “Yeah, he’s really stressed out.” And then he just got up and ran down the street, and so I went out and got him.
Drake Busath: I can totally see that. You know who has that kind of supernatural ability that you do? It may be innate, some of it, I’m not sure if people can learn to create stories like you do on the fly, but my son Richard can do that. And I’ve seen… I can’t tell you how many parents have come over to me afterwards and said that, “I don’t know how he did that.” Because he can handle those children like that. Maybe different tools but methods. But one of his is, “Don’t start the session silly. Hold silly and keep it in your pocket for a while.” So he’ll start a session very serious. He’s an angry old man to them a little bit. And I’ve watched him do that. Whereas, normally your tendency is to just go make friends with them in the dressing room or right out of the car. And he doesn’t do that. He keeps it quiet.
Drake Busath: And I’ve seen him march a group of children. We have big families with lots of grandchildren and you probably do too. And I’ve seen him march them out, like, “Get in line, stay in line, follow me.” And command their respect early in the session. And you sit here quietly, shh, quiet and then get silly later or whatever tools you have. But that’s a directing method. Mainly though, when you’re talking about that, the worship your dad thing, it’s such a contrast to the confrontation portrait that you see over and over again where the concept is you smile at the camera and look your best. That’s the concept, “We’re going to make you look good. Your hair will be perfect and you lost some weight and you put you in the right angle.”
Drake Busath: And that’s the concept is four people smiling at the camera, and it doesn’t get beyond that. They’re evenly spaced. I think I see in your work, and I see in my work in my hero photographers this gapping and spacing of people graphically to illustrate a concept. Maybe these two are touching and there’s a gap between them.
Allison Tyler Jones: And there’s a reason for all of that.
Drake Busath: There’s a story. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. There’s a story for. If you’ve got a, to me, 13, maybe 15, 16-year-old boy could be the biggest mama’s boy in the world, but he doesn’t necessarily want to see himself that way. So I’ll turn him away from the mom. He’ll still be next to the mom, but I’ll have him put his back to the mom and then he’ll still be leaning on her and touching her and loving her with his shoulder blade.
Allison Tyler Jones: But he looks cool because he’s faced away. And so I will tell him as I’m putting in there, I’ll say, “Look, you’re 16. I know you’re a total mama’s boy and you always will be. Nobody’s going to love you as much as this woman does, ever but you’re still cool. So I want you to face away from her, but love her with your shoulder blade.” And then I’ll go put the daughter by the dad, who’s the daddy’s girl and kind of the same thing, depending on their age. If there’s one that’s still a babe in arms or still wants to be usually the baby of the family. I love the birth order. I love to tell that story. But if a mom says to me, “Yeah, no, he’s totally not a mama’s boy, he’s a daddy’s…” Whatever, then I’ll switch it.
Drake Busath: Yeah, I love that. I love that you’re giving him an assign… Like an actor, you’re giving him a role or a concept and then let them work it out. Like, “You’re cool.” Lets you look cool. When you’re telling that story. I remember a family that was another epiphany for me where the daughter was 19 or something. She’d just left the home for college and she was not in the mood to cuddle with her family at that moment feeling very independent.
Drake Busath: And I remember realizing that there should be a gap there. The younger kids are going to lean on mom and dad, but that needed a gap. And so working out the structural arrangement of that is tricky. One thing I found is standing portraits allow me to do that. Standing portraits, like, “Okay, scrape all the furniture for a minute. I’m going to get the camera low and shoot the group standing.” Because now they can move even six inches, four inches, makes a big difference in the gaps and syncopation between the bodies.
Drake Busath: I see Indra Leonardo doing this beautifully where’s shooting from real low angle. And if one person in a group steps forward like that 19-year-old girl in this case, she steps out in front of the group six inches, 12 inches. She gets taller and a little larger And it’s not going to work for everybody. But in this case, then the parents receive just a little bit and there’s a little story happening there.
Drake Busath: So I quit sitting the whole group for, I mean, I have no problem with it, but I really like standing groups. I like the way their clothes hang easier. I like that little illustration, but it helps a lot to get a lower angle. I’ve seen you do that, by the way. I’ve seen you. You’ve sat on the-
Allison Tyler Jones: I sit on the floor.
Drake Busath: You’re on the floor?
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m on the floor. Yeah. I love a low cam. I love a low camera angle and I love compression. Those are essential to my life.
Drake Busath: So longer lens, compression to keep the body sizes equal as you move them around. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I just love the way it looks. It can keep them together even if they aren’t really together.
Drake Busath: On that concept I see… I was talking about watching photographers in this meadow and they’re using short lenses. They’ve got 24 to 70 on, they’re not on a tripod and they’re staying close enough to a family so they can communicate. That’s a big problem, right? Because now-
Allison Tyler Jones: Everybody on the outside’s going to look when they weigh 700 pounds.
Drake Busath: Right outside edges. But also anybody stepped back, they shrink and forward they enlarge, which great if you’re doing it on purpose. But stepping way back, and I mean 150 millimeters is where I want to be with the family group to even out the head sizes. I think that’s a directing skill. But it creates problems communicating. And I want to be on a tripod so I’m not holding the camera while I’m trying to talk to them. That’s crazy. If I have to crop every image individually because I was moving the whole time.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re describing the water that I’m drowning in, Drake Busath. It’s like when Stacey goes to do my initial edit, it’s like the drunken sailor. Yeah, that’s exactly what it is. And the thing that is amazing to me as I am so incredibly consistent at the wrong angle. It’s always this 55 degrees at the same… So couldn’t I just make it straight out all the time? I don’t know, but the tripod is really hard. But I am shooting with it in my hands. I’m sitting, I’m on the floor, and then I am up over the camera screaming and then screaming and then yeah, not screaming.
Drake Busath: Do you think your brain is a little crooked like that?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, absolutely.
Drake Busath: Five degrees off. Yeah, mine is too.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s way-
Drake Busath: Do you lean left or right? Nevermind. Different conversation.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s left. It’s definitely goes left. Yeah, for sure. But that-
Drake Busath: It’s a style. No, I know.
Allison Tyler Jones: I got to straighten them out every single time. It’s so annoying.
Drake Busath: Sure. Yeah. I do that-
Allison Tyler Jones: Multi-gen sessions, I will shoot on a camera stand just because we’ve got so many head swaps and things we have to do. And I love the freedom of being able to talk to them. And then with a big group like that, right? It is pretty, pretty stacked and pretty static. So I can do what you’re saying. My camera’s on the tripod or the camera stand, and so I’m talking to them and I’m shooting and I love that. But once I break down into where I need to have movement, I can’t be on a tripod, I just can’t do it.
Drake Busath: You pull it off. I can see that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Physically unable.
Drake Busath: I can see that. And I do the same thing. I’ll pull it off for breakdowns for freedom like that. So do you have a camera stand that will get the camera right down close to the floor?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. It’s the one-
Drake Busath: You’re not trying to spread the legs on a tripod?
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s a camera stand.
Drake Busath: That’s a directing issue. The amount of time you goof around with your gear is lost, right? Because the clock starts and there’s a limited attention span. And if you’re doing anything, changing lenses even, or fussing with the tripod… So I say tripod, but man our photographers and assistants better be really fluid with that and not struggle with it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and I’m continually, just as we’re having this conversation, I’m thinking, “Okay, how am I doing this?” I’m continually talking to my client. So if they’re there and I need to flip a lens, change a lens or whatever, I have an assistant right there and I’ll say, “Give me the 2470 or whatever. But I’m still having a conversation with them, “Okay, so what I need you to do is… Okay, that looks really great. Just move over here.” I’ll give them something to do while I’m changing that. “I’m just going to change this really quick, or we’re going to just reset this light really fast. Maybe take a break,” or whatever. But the whole thing is being managed.
Allison Tyler Jones: There’s no time where they’re just left to themselves while I’m over here messing with my gear. Never. I’m always on them. Even though I don’t shoot from a tripod and my face is behind the camera, even still… maintaining that connection is key for me.
Drake Busath: So you’re the entertainer. You don’t hand that duty off to an assistant ever?
Allison Tyler Jones: No, but if I wasn’t the entertainer… We had one family that was going to be really challenging and I wasn’t shooting it. And so I had my associate photographer, she tends to be a little bit more shy. And I had the assistant that was working with her was way more bossy, and I had that assistant do the directing. So I think you can do it that way. Do you agree?
Drake Busath: I’m with you. It’s never the same constantly. I find that the photographer should be the entertainer and keep that engagement and keep that story, because the assistant can’t possibly come up with those concepts and then continue with that and perfect it like you can ever, ever. But an assistant can push the button on the camera, especially if it’s on a tripod. Now you’re in the studio. So I’m thinking I’m out in the garden. In my mind right now, I’m thinking the camera is 150 millimeters away from the lens, 120 yard, it’s backed up. And you’d have to yell to communicate. That’s where we’ll use the assistant to put on the camera. And the being on the tripod is pretty focused. There’s a cable release. Outdoor issues, there are a lot of added issues that micro vibration in the camera because you’re hitting that button too hard and you’re at 30th of a second or because you’re in low light.
Drake Busath: And so that’s another reason I sacrifice the freedom of handheld and go to the tripod so the assistant can be useful. Then I’ll wear out on the children. I’ll become white noise and I can see them glaze over. They’re tired of this old man. I’m not as entertaining as you are. So that’s when I’ll say, “Your turn, you’re in.” And I don’t have to say that. I just toss them a boy or something and I’ll give it a try and I’ll watch happily as they can’t conquer this child either. And then I’ll say, “Let me step in and fix this.”
Drake Busath: But I just need that break sometimes in a session. I really do. And they need a break from me sometimes too. You know what happened once? When I was talking about that I’m picturing this family that we had about 35 people and they’re all posed on this balustrade steps that we built in the yard. And it’s all perfect, and grandma and grandpa have gone to such lengths to make this happen.
Drake Busath: And this fifteen-year-old boy… and we’re back and I’ve got everybody’s attention except this 15-year-old and this 17-year-old brother. And we’re minutes away from having this thing. I mean, I can see the end of the time, I can see everybody coming together and getting the concept and leaning on each other and all that. And then the 15-year-old turns and slugs his brother in the face because he was touching him wrong or something.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, yeah. Of course.
Drake Busath: And so here’s a mantra of mine. “What would Steven Spielberg do?” I say that every day, probably. “What would Spielberg do?” A lot of times it has to do with, “Oh, we’re cutting corners on lighting.” Or, “The sun’s hitting the corner of that shop. What would Spielberg do? He would shut this set down and bring in another truckload of equipment. He would hang a 60 by 60 foot scrim there.”
Drake Busath: And so we say that a lot. But in that situation, what would Spielberg do? Or what would Eastwood do? And it was beautiful. I wish you had been there. You would’ve fixed this, but you got to walk these boys off. Their dad wants to punish them. The parents are losing it. They’re no longer in the mood. Now there are 30 other people that are no longer in the mood either. Some of them are amused, and that’s where a director comes in.
Allison Tyler Jones: So what did you do?
Drake Busath: We just laughed about it to the group. We let dad walk off and do his thing. I wasn’t going to instruct him on how to punish his boys or whatever. And then we make it light. The last thing you want to show is shock and disappointment. So I don’t know exactly what was said, but I do remember making a funny story of it by saying, “This is what you’ll remember every time you look at this portrait. Won’t this be great on your wall? Everybody that comes in your house. You’re going to want to tell them this story because a great story.”
Allison Tyler Jones: That is so funny.
Drake Busath: While dad’s over there, reaming his boys and the rest of us are smiling. So when they come back, everybody’s in a good mood. It was fun. Customers still come in and tell stories like that. Well, not just that one, but all sorts of things go wrong. And some of the, I’m sure you have this happen where your best customer relationships come out of the riddle of hardship.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, yeah.
Drake Busath: Something like you are saying your autistic boy or your child that’s the top-
Allison Tyler Jones: Naughty, rotten.
Drake Busath: Naughty, rotten kids.
Allison Tyler Jones: So I just want to call out, I want to highlight a difference here. Because I’m thinking in that situation, because I had that happen. My clients know going in, they’re not allowed to talk to their kids. So when you said, “Well, I’m not going to get in the way of a dad punishing their boy.” Oh, I’m getting in the way of that.
Drake Busath: Really?
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. Oh yeah. And I will tell the dad, “Dad, I got this.” And I will pull the boys off to the side, and I’ll be like, “Dude, do you ever want to drive? Do you ever want to have a cell phone? Do you ever… Help me, help you. You moron.” I don’t say that to him. “You are an idiot. Knock it off and let’s get over here. I got two full-size snicker bars and a Dutch Bros card out in the lobby for you and you’re holding me up.” And so then they just crack up and think it’s hilarious and funny because I’m not their mom. I don’t have to parent them for the rest of their life. I just have to get through this 45 to 90 minute. And I’ve got their dad off their back, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: So I’ve had a lot… I will not let people talk to their kids. And so in a multi-gen, I’ll say, “Okay, everybody, you are not allowed to talk to your kids. When I’m talking to your kids, I don’t want you looking at them. I don’t want you seeing what I’m seeing because then you’re looking at them and you’re not looking at me. So keep it here. You just look pleasant, look good, dial it in. I’m going to direct them. If they act crazy, if they cry, if they start whatever, I got it. We got it.”
Allison Tyler Jones: And so then the kids, if the parents are like, “Hey, look over here.” I’m like, “Did you just talk to your kid? Because I’m going to have to give you a timeout if you just talk to your kid.” And so I tell the kids-
Drake Busath: When do you, in the lobby or is this before you get in the camera room?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, if it’s a multi-gen… I tell them in the consultation, but they never remember, the parents don’t. But when the kids come in, I’m like, “Okay, so for the next hour, you don’t have to listen to your parents. Who do you think you have to listen to?” If they’re little, right? And then they’ll go, “You.” And I’m like, right. If they’re older teenagers, I’m like, “Okay, for the next hour, you don’t have to listen to these fools. I’m in charge of you.”
Drake Busath: Oh, that’s nice.
Allison Tyler Jones: “So if they try to talk to you, if they are pinching you, if they’re whispering in your ear to smile, I want you to tell on them because then they’re going to get a timeout if they misbehave.” So then it’s the parents that are misbehaving. And then, I mean, the kids will tell on them all the time, “She’s talking to me.” Or they’ll be like, “Mom, she said not to talk to you.” And so I’m like, “Mom, did you need to have a timeout? Do you need to come over here for a minute?” And then they just think it’s… the kids think it’s hilarious. It’s so funny that their parents are getting in trouble, and usually the moms will totally buy in. Sometimes I’ll get a dad that gets a little bit sideways on that. They don’t really like that, especially if they’re a control freak.
Allison Tyler Jones: I had one dad, the oldest son, he wasn’t even being bad. He just wasn’t doing exactly what the dad wanted him to do at that exact moment. And the dad pinched the back of his arm so hard it made the kid cry. So I walked over and I’m like, “Ryan, there’s snot running down his face. How is this helping me get a better a picture?” “Well, he wasn’t listening.” I’m like, “Okay, go make some money on your phone because now you’re going to have to buy a bigger picture because I got to get this kid figured out.”
Drake Busath: That’s good.
Allison Tyler Jones: So then I had to bribe the oldest kid. Fortunately, I am one, so I knew how to do that. That works really well for me, is dividing and conquering between the parents. But that wouldn’t work for everybody’s personality at all.
Drake Busath: Right. Yeah. Some people you wouldn’t be able to tell your motives. They might just think cranky. I think it’s brilliant. I learned something today. Thank you. And we’re going to have an emergency staff meeting to introduce that idea.
Allison Tyler Jones: I really like getting those concepts out there. But I just felt like dividing… Because the parent… it’s so fraught. They’ve had to dress these kids, they’ve had to get down there. Sometimes they have a dog with them. And so it’s very stressful to get everybody there. And usually the husband’s not into it. And if there’re older boys, they’re like you said, the 15 and 17-year-old, they’re just not into it. And so then how do you introduce something, a new dynamic that you can play off of all the way through?
Allison Tyler Jones: And it’s not going to last forever, but it just needs to last 45 to 90 minutes. So sometimes I’ll talk to photographers who will be like, “Well, they just don’t know how to raise their kids.” And they’re like getting into all this thing about the parenting. I’m like, “I don’t give a crap about how they raise…” I mean, I do want them to raise good kids, but that’s not my job. My job is to just get their personalities and their little dynamic right now and then let them go.
Drake Busath: I’m listening to that and realizing that everybody’s got a style coming into this business, style of working with people. And we just have to sit back and identify or have someone else identify what our strengths are and then just develop those. If my strength is speaking quietly so that they have to listen carefully to what I’m saying, and that’s a distraction from what’s happening. And I think I have some other skills that I’ve developed that are along my personality role. And your personality is entirely different. I’m going to try that technique, but I’ll let you know. I’ll report back to see if it works.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I can see you doing it in your way. You could do it. And the Drake Busath way would be a little bit more Eddie Haskell.
Drake Busath: Eddie Haskell. Okay. Well, I think that Richard can do it. I think Erin can do it, and I think Laura can do it, but we have three photographers here and they each have distinctly different styles. So identifying what your directing skills are though, and then developing those is better than chasing after someone else’s, right?
Drake Busath: So I think that if you’re a soft and gentle person, then go crazy. Be the softest, gentlest photographer, then let them talk about that after they leave. Or if you’re a hilarious, standup comic, then let that be. I heard Steve Martin say the other day, “We’re supposed to… They say, be yourself.” He said, “But I don’t know who myself is, do you?” And it took him a while to figure out what his self was. And then he-
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s so true.
Drake Busath: He went so all in on that. He did on stage that, for years, no one knew what he was doing up there. And then we figured it out. But yourself is unique because I haven’t seen anyone else that could quite handle the parents that well, right cold out of the chute like you can. But it is a skill that I think I’m going to introduce. And I think when I think of our photographers, I think Richard can particularly do that. And I think Erin can do that because she’s a mom, she has six kids and she can speak that way with authority. Whereas Laura has no children, probably can’t speak to parents that way, the more I think about it.
Allison Tyler Jones: But I love becoming more of who you already are. And I think once you try some things, then you realize, “Oh, that was really good.” And then I think you also, it’s like a little bit of a dog whistle to your people. I tend to attract people that have families that have bigger personalities. That’s my sweet spot. So when they come in, they’re usually loud and unruly. And by the time we’re done, I’ve for sure hit somebody’s kid in play in jest. But if there’s a, 15, 17-year-old boy, their hair has had to be tapped back down after I’ve hit him outside the head at least once.
Drake Busath: You know what, Allison? I have never hit a child in a session and I-
Allison Tyler Jones: I’ve carried one on my back. I’ve had a naughty one, I’ve had up under my arm while I’m still shooting. I mean, I will go and grab onto them. I actually am not afraid of that at all. And it’s actually for those naughty ones, they love it.
Drake Busath: So whatever style you have, there are some skills that can be incorporated into it. One of them is showing confidence that you do. Right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Drake Busath: And that reminds me of a photographer that we had. We opened a second studio in Provo and he was this greatest person. He was my assistant here. I trusted him like crazy. “Why don’t you move your family to Provo and run this studio? And you’ve assisted long enough.” He was wonderful in every way except one, he couldn’t show confidence during the session. He would scratch his-
Allison Tyler Jones: Hmm, it’s death on a stick.
Drake Busath: Yeah. So he would look at it and like, “Hmm.” Scratch his chin a little bit and look dissatisfied. You could see it. And I know what’s in his head. He’s being creative, he’s trying to improve on it, but he’s projecting a lack of confidence. And I think people could see that as a virtue that you’re open-minded, you’re trying to be creative. But you can’t do that. You have to say, “Wow, that looks good. Wow, you look good. Holy cow, I love that one. That’s the one we came for.” Even if you know perfectly well, it was crap. So confidence in whatever technique you’re using.
Drake Busath: I remember a story… Okay there were some photographers, we were meeting with a group of photographers and we decided to photograph each other years and years and years ago. And this photographer from Michigan was shooting, doing a portrait of me and my wife outdoors. And when he was done or when he got the shot, the image, he stood up and he spun around on one toe, like ballet style. And he celebrated. He celebrated. And I just thought, “Wow, he just got a great image. I’m going to love this.” I remember so clearly knowing that I would love that photograph no matter even weeks before I ever saw it. It was a…
Drake Busath: And today I was out assisting a little, moving some furniture for Erin, one of our photographers, and she did that. And I haven’t congratulated her yet, but I wanted next time I see her, and to say, “Oh, I love the way you celebrate on each pose, each set up you do. You just say something like, ‘Oh my word. I love that one. Oh, that’s the best one yet.'” Something which back to confidence. But that’s not easy to do for everybody. I had to force it. I remember using other photographers terms that I’d heard them use because I wasn’t natural at celebrating like that. Like you said, I’m kind of low-key, low energy.
Allison Tyler Jones: Not low energy, you’re just low-key. You’re just even.
Drake Busath: But there’s something that I can say that I learned how to say, and it’s this, “You know what my favorite thing about this image is going to be?” So it’s a question. So it’s engaging. And it’s probably right after or near the end of the set, let’s say it’s a family breakdown and got two or three good images I feel like we’re there. I might walk in and say, “My favorite thing about this is going to be… It’s the way your hand is just draped over your mom’s hand. Just that trust that I see that right there is that is going to make me happy.”
Drake Busath: And then that’s a celebration of just pointing out, “Oh…” And it’s a reinforcement of the concept that we’re trying to do. And then in the presentation of the image, that needs to be pointed out again, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.
Drake Busath: “Do you know what makes me really happy about this as a stranger, who’s not part of your family. Do you know what kind of makes my heart beat a little faster? Is the way that his head is leaning on your shoulder right there, or the way your knees touch like that, because not all siblings will allow that. And you two have, I could tell some special relationship.” And then all of a sudden in the session and in the salesroom, they’re not looking at their nose anymore.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I think it’s 80% performance art and then 80% showing them to each other, seeing them and letting them see each other. In a portrait session, you’re not shooting everybody all the time. So you might peel the parents off to do the kids. And so I love having the parents over by me in a chair offset. And I’ll say, “Come sit over here and watch the show. Come sit over here and watch your kids,” or whatever.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so then the dad might be on his phone or whatever, but usually they’re not. They think they’re going to be, but they’re fascinated by these humans they’ve created. And so then we’ll have something going on and do the directing. And then very often I’ll just say, “Are you seeing this? Are you seeing thing that what you’ve created, look at this. Look at these guys. They are amazing.”
Allison Tyler Jones: And like you said, I think you know you’ve done it right. When somebody is walking out going, “Oh, these are the best pictures ever.” And they haven’t seen them yet. Or I know they’re going to be, they haven’t even seen them yet, because they saw those moments happening. And then you’re calling them out to each other, like, “Look at those two knuckleheads.” Even if they’re throwing each other to the ground, one’s sitting on top of the other, they’re just like, “Oh my gosh, we know.” Or, it’s just like, “This is the best thing that you’ve ever done.” And we don’t get time to look at each other in the world that we live in. We’re too busy, “Get them in the back of the car. Let’s go to the baseball game. Let’s…”
Allison Tyler Jones: Just running to and fro living life and trying to discipline them and raise decent humans, that you don’t really get a chance unless you’re at a baptism or a graduation and you’re watching that little video of the portraits go by or whatever. But you don’t get that 30,000 foot view of like, “No, actually this is pretty amazing what we’ve created here.” And we do have our own little unique dynamic.
Drake Busath: That’s just brilliant. And it’s such a service, isn’t it? We get together as photographers at conventions, and nine out of 10 programs are about how to make more money. But seriously, if we want to make more money, then there are other businesses that industry-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, for sure.
Drake Busath: I mean, we need the money. But that service that you just talked about where you said you let the parents sit back for a minute and see that interaction and then point out to them what great parents they are and what brilliant children they’ve got and what you love about… And that’s just such a service.
Drake Busath: And then the idea, that sentence, those phrases that you said in the camera room will come back to them as they see this portrait on their wall daily is such a great service. I don’t know what other profession could provide that to parents.
Allison Tyler Jones: No. And don’t you think, I mean, maybe because you were raised in the business, you don’t have this. But I have words in my head from photographers because my mom had us photographed, not every year, but on occasion. But I have words from photographers in my head that have become a part of my personality, have become a part of my confidence or lack thereof. That, “Oh, you’re photogenic because you have wide cheekbones.” So I’m like, “I’m taking that to the bank for the rest of my life.”
Drake Busath: No, true.
Allison Tyler Jones: Or you have sandy blonde hair. For some reason that stuck in my head when I was eight years old, had a portrait done, “I have sandy blonde hair.” So what we do, they’re in a vulnerable position. It’s been hard to get there. Their emotion is high usually when they walk in. So we can let all of that energy fall off by dinking around with our camera or like you were talking, that photographer, he was getting creative, but he was being selfish in a way because he wasn’t directing it at the client. Right?
Drake Busath: Right. Right, exactly.
Allison Tyler Jones: He was navel-gazing his own creativity rather than, yes, we need to be creative, but you got to do that before they get there. And you got to be prepped and locked and loaded so that you can be fully engaged, and like you always say, “Help them engage their mind. They’re not thinking about their nose or their waist.” And then help them engage with each other so that they forget about how hard it was to get there, and they actually go home better than when they got there.
Drake Busath: So we’re photographing relationships, not just people, right? That’s what I hear you saying. It’s what I think anyway is you can have five people all posing, all confronting the camera and looking their best. And the girl puts her hand on her hip and kicks a knee forward, but there are five individuals as opposed to a concept that you’re illustrating. And what are you going to tell the parents about that? “Whoa. She really knows that pose,” right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, seeing her pose. Yeah.
Drake Busath: But getting beyond that with all the pressures of a family portrait session, getting beyond that and seeing the story and then creating a concept like you were talking about, is I think that’s a 10,000-hour skill. And then on top of that, maybe another 5,000 hours is telling a true story instead of fantasy.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. I was just going to say that.
Drake Busath: Like, “Let’s put all your cheeks together and give each other a big hug.” Well, that’s a fantasy. Right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Drake Busath: And the true story-
Allison Tyler Jones: For some families.
Drake Busath: Sure, it could be. But if you’re confident enough in your equipment and your lighting that you can focus on the family and look for stories in the dressing room, in the front room, in the parking lot, wherever it is, you’re meeting them. And notice who goes with whom, who walks together, who holds hands, who belongs together. And then just having had children and raised families we have, that comes easier. You can identify those stories.
Drake Busath: But in my mind, I got to a point where I thought, “I don’t want this to look good for this year and the next two years. I want it to be a really interesting image in 20 or 30 years.” That means I’ve got to tell true stories about the relationship and illustrate some kind of family relationship, but it also means maybe I don’t want them all in matching black clothes because it’s not a true story.
Drake Busath: I want to bust that up a little bit. I mean, I look back at family and we did a lot too. Everybody wear jeans and a black shirt. And historically 20, 30 years later, that goes in the trash honestly, because of the clothing. It’s obviously not true. It’s a fantasy. The boy hitting a home run with the stadium lights on and crowd cheering in that fantasy Photoshop illustration of him, 10, 20 years from now, it’s in the garbage.
Drake Busath: But him leaning on his back looking vulnerable or… That’s going to stick. And so I think I became a better photographer the day that I started thinking in 20 years out terms. And it takes some convincing, I’m sure you have to do this, tell me if I’m wrong, in the presentation, in the view and selection realm, you got to point those stories out and remind them that, “This is going to get better with age, this one. Whereas that one’s just flattering, but this one’s going to get better with time.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and don’t you feel like the more that you are shooting your true stories, right? True for you and true to that client, you start attracting clients that get that. They get it. They see the one. Because if it’s a new client, I’ll always show them something a little more traditional, but then something that’s weird that I like, I’m always editing for a little bit weird or just, I don’t know. That word is probably not the right word, but anyway, but I find that I attract people-
Drake Busath: Weird is good.
Allison Tyler Jones: I find that I attract those that want that. They want that little, it’s imperfect, it’s a real moment. And so going back to that real and not authentic, so is anybody that’s listening to maybe this last few minutes of this conversation might think, “Okay, so I’ve got to practice. Oh, notice this. Notice that.” It has to be real. I think it has to be true because for me, I am shooting in, everything’s fake, right? The lighting’s fake. The environment is fake. Everything is fake. It is a contrived atmosphere. I have no environment. I have no… I’m not in a meadow. It is a fake environment. So the only thing that’s real is the connection and the personalities. That’s it.
Allison Tyler Jones: And if that’s not real, like you said, it’s going to go in the trash. If it’s the 15-year-old hit the 17-year-old and they’re still falling, I might just shoot that. And then it’s the whole multi-gen and the 15-year-old hit the 17-year-old, he’s falling over the valley straight. Great. Celebrate it. That was amazing. Or those little toes on those little kids when they look shy or as they hide behind the dad’s leg or whatever, those little moments. It’s not a fake thing that we… it’s not a sales technique. It is and it isn’t. It’s not contrived, “Oh, so we can sell more portraits later.” It really is seeing that and showing that to them. And then that portrait has so much more value because it’s not only Drake at age five, it’s like there’s layers in there.
Drake Busath: Right. I am completely in agreement. And it brings us back around to collaboration with the clients and bringing them in, pulling them in, and actually understanding them a little better, being surprised by them a little bit. I really do think it’s a trap that portrait photographers fall into where they control everything and they never allow that interaction.
Drake Busath: They can’t notice because they’re in control too much. They can’t notice the relationship between these two teenage kids because they aren’t busy controlling them. And so giving that up and letting go I think is a plateau that photographers reach after several years of working, letting go.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, I’m going to stop you there because I think that’s true of the classic portrait photographer. I think the reverse is true of the candid. Do you know what I’m saying?
Drake Busath: Of course.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so there’s two things. So there’s the print competition, there’s these rules of posing and where their hand needs to be. And it’s like you get them in and you are just like everything is to perfection so that you leave room. Okay. So that’s one. I think the rebellion against that has been the “photo journalistic, everything’s candid. Oh, I’m just a fly on the wall.” And it’s so loose that you’re like, “It’s just snapshots. It’s not actually…” So it’s somewhere between those two things you’re directing.
Allison Tyler Jones: So again, for me, it’s kind of like, “Okay, here’s this fake box. How do I make what’s happening in it real? And candid but yet controlled. But yet candid but yet controlled.” It’s like you were saying, the control and then the collaboration. So the control is the classic part. That’s the technique that makes it good. And then the collaboration or allowing for that serendipity of the client’s personality is the thing that keeps it fresh and that allows your style to come in there.
Drake Busath: And I’ll bet people listening to this, I relate much more to that starting out as a spray and pray method. I started out as super controlled method classical because every time I pushed the shutter release, I just spent a $1.50 that really defined my directing style, shooting medium or large format film. But coming from the other direction, I don’t have much experience with… You can address that better, but I can see what you mean. If you’re coming from, I’ll shoot 500 images on this family and breakdowns, how do you narrow that focus down? I think it’s the same tool, right? You start by learning something about your people.
Drake Busath: And I don’t, by the way, wine and dine clients and have a lot of heavy consultations. I’m learning about them 10 minutes before we start shooting. But that same tool is still important. I mean, we do try so hard to get consultations open into our workflow and we do, but it’s often someone else in the studio, and maybe I’m looking at notes because my time is precious, Allison I need to be watching Netflix.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’ve got to be in Italy.
Drake Busath: I need to be in Italy or watching that. Holy cow, have you seen the Netflix series called Ripley? And I don’t even know the actors in it?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, The Talented Mr. Ripley. It’s based on that-
Drake Busath: It’s based on that-
Allison Tyler Jones: … novel, the Talented Mr. Ripley.
Drake Busath: … that novel.
Allison Tyler Jones: I haven’t seen it yet.
Drake Busath: Every photographer needs to see this. Okay. That’s why I bring it up. One, because it’s done all in black and white and it’s just brilliantly controlled and posed, and every shot is a piece of… you could hang it on your wall. And everything is rectilinear. And I mean, it’s just beautifully done, the lighting. And it’s photographed set in this village called Atrani, where I just was last week with a group of photographers on our Italy workshop. And so that’s why it’s really on my mind.
Drake Busath: But even if that wasn’t my favorite little seaside village, it is brilliant film. And it’s an illustration of the fact that directors like Clint Eastwood never would’ve made that film because he’s too Lucy Goosey, he’s too open-minded to his actor’s whims. This is very controlled. Anyway, I don’t know. I got off track again, but I-
Allison Tyler Jones: I love it, because I think it is directly related. And I think film and still have way more in common than they do different. No matter where you’re shooting, it should be looked at as a set. Well, this is my opinion, this is the world according to Allison. And you have control of that set and everything that happens there, so even if you’re on location, what you’re allowing into the frame, but also what you’re… You can’t let things that are going to take away from the energy contaminate, even if it’s the bad mood of a client or a subject. You have to get in front of that and manage that to do your job because you’re going to be blamed if it doesn’t turn out.
Allison Tyler Jones: It doesn’t matter that the 15-year-old hit their 17-year-old because they don’t know how to parent their kids. It doesn’t matter. The fact that it didn’t turn out is going to be your fault. They’re going to be mad at you and it’s going to negatively affect you. So if you’re going to be on the hook for it, then control it.
Drake Busath: You’re Ron Howard, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Drake Busath: You are the director and it all comes back to you. And I think photographers, portrait photographers in particular should stop listening to me and take a course with Ron Howard about directing film and handling all the… or Spielberg one of the master classes that you are responsible, and it does have to be a true story. It has to be a meaningful story. And you’re not there to be a fly on the wall at all. It’s your set. I like the way you said that. It’s your set.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think of one thing that you were just saying too, about that photographer that was not projecting the confidence that if you’re walking up and you’re just meeting them, and I can imagine that you would never do this, “Okay, what did you want to do?”
Drake Busath: Mm-hmm. “What do you want to do?” Ron Howard would never ask that, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: “Where do you want to go? Well, those trees over there look pretty good. What do you think about that?” No, they are paying you to make all of those decisions. And the more opinionated and the more expertise and the more opinion that you have about it, the happier and calmer they feel because they feel like, “Oh, okay, she’s got this. He’s got this. I don’t have to…” That would be panic inducing.
Allison Tyler Jones: We get rolled in on a gurney into a surgeon and the guy’s standing there with the scalpel, “Okay, what did you want me to do? Did you want the appendectomy where we cut it off at the top? Do you want the cat gut? Do you want the staple? Do you want the…” You’d be like, no confidence, right? You’d have no confidence.
Drake Busath: Right. Yeah. Well, that’s so true. So we’ve boiled it down to a few-
Allison Tyler Jones: Controlled collaboration.
Drake Busath: We’ve solved all the problems. Well, yeah, balance between control and collaboration, but it’s not wildly free and it’s not wildly controlled. It’s based on true stories that you observed. And I think the term directing is really the key to the whole thing. If you’ve got that in your head that you’re not a photographer, you’re not a cameraman, you’re not a grip, and you’re not even a standup comedian. Because lose control of the session by telling funny jokes and making people laugh, and all of a sudden you’ve lost control of the story or the concept that you need to portray. So you’ve got to rise above all of those mechanical things that have to be done and direct. And honestly, if I could give up… I’ve heard you say if I gave up something, it might be this or that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Drake Busath: And you even said shooting even the camera once. And I thought, “Yeah, you know what? If I could be the art director on scene and sit in a director’s chair and make sure that the concept is being told, and then I want to be supervising the cutting room too, and I want to supervise the music that goes behind this. It’s the director’s role that is, I think is what we’re talking about.” And I take a lot of pride in that. And when I meet friends that make a ton more money and are way more famous, I have to just take satisfaction that I’m making beautiful little portraits that will be-
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, you’re so full of crap.
Drake Busath: That will live long lives in houses around the world, and they will increase in value because we did exactly what you said. You’re going to worship your dad, and we got real expression and real story going on. That’s just wonderful. I might steal that one from you, okay?
Allison Tyler Jones: Do it. I got…
Drake Busath: Add it to the list.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So as we head out on this, because I think this is probably a good stopping point, let’s do just rapid fire. Some really go-to prompts that almost never fail. You got any?
Drake Busath: Directing prompts?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Drake Busath: Distraction, young children I have to distract them and obviously I can’t… I’ve got to get their mind off what’s happening. This is from babies to 12, 14. And so my go-to trick is balance something on my head. I know this is maybe not what you’re looking for.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And this is exactly what I’m looking for.
Drake Busath: If I’ve got an out of control child that I’ve got to create suspense. So a three or four, five-year-old, I can create suspense like start close to the group and try to show them this trick that I think I’m so good at. And as I back up, I fail. And they love to see adults fail, especially four or five-year-olds or little mass sadists. And they like to see the humiliation on an adult’s face. So that’s one that I use.
Drake Busath: And then I use one a lot that I call discipline where I’m yelling, but I’m not yelling at them, I’m yelling at a puppet or whatever happens to be in my pocket. My set of keys or whatever, because it’s not behaving and it’s getting the best of me. And so a two-year-old will hear that tone of voice, me yelling at a puppet. And they know that tone of voice and they sit still. They just freeze. So that’s my best two-year-old, wild two, three-year-old freezing technique, is I have to raise my voice and say, “Doggonit, would you do it for it once, for once, do it right and stop jumping down off that chair.” But I’m talking to a puppet, right, saying-
Allison Tyler Jones: And they’re just like, “Somebody else is getting in trouble. I got to see that.”
Drake Busath: Right? And somebody else in the group might look at me, “What are you yelling about?” But the two-year-old sits still, those are a couple of quick fallbacks that I’ve developed.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s so good.
Drake Busath: And yeah, now you share one.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I have one that’s fairly recent. So there’s no tiny girls that work at our studio, we’re all full-bodied women. And so Stacy is just curvy and cute, and she’s got a bum on her. And so sometimes to a little kid like that, I’ll say, “Okay, now…” And she’s running the light. I’ll say, “Now, Ms. Stacy sometimes is inappropriate. And I’ve told her before you came in here today, she is not allowed to shake her booty. So if she does, you have to tell me, but don’t lie. Don’t tell me she’s shaking her booty if she’s not shaking her booty.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so then I’m behind the camera, I’m taking it. So then she turns around and she starts shaking her booty, and they’re like, “She’s doing it.” And then as soon as I put the camera down, she stops and turns. And I’m like, “Why are you trying to tell on her? That is so mean.” Now she’s getting in trouble. And so they think it’s so funny. Then they’re going to catch it.
Allison Tyler Jones: The only downside of it is sometimes they will point. So I’ll say, “Don’t point at her shaking her booty. Just tell me.” Some of them can’t help it, and they have to point, which sometimes that’s cute too. But like you said, it gets their mind engaged and they love to see somebody else getting in trouble or potentially getting in trouble. But for me, the puppets getting in trouble, usually that’s their dad. So I’m using the dad for the puppet.
Drake Busath: The dad. Yeah. There you go.
Allison Tyler Jones: The dad is like… I’m like, “Did you just talk to your kid? Okay, you’re in the corner. Do you need me to take your phone? What needs to happen?” But I mean, even that works with teenagers, even 21-year- olds. They’ll be like, “Yeah, put them in the corner.”
Drake Busath: Right? I love it.
Allison Tyler Jones: They’re sick of hearing it. So yeah, those are couple.
Drake Busath: Love it. So we all need assistant that can shake her booty on command. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Get somebody with a booty.
Drake Busath: I love it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I appreciate you taking the time. That wealth of experience is invaluable. And I think it does take time, it’s not something you can learn overnight, but just I think… Don’t you think if we just try to learn from every session? There’s something you can learn from every single session.
Drake Busath: And honestly, it helps to teach these concepts to other photographers, they stick in your mind better. So any chance that your listeners get to teach a mini class or whatever, even to amateurs, I don’t know. There was a genealogical convention. I got to go teach complete non-photographers. And the things that I said, really, I think we all learn the things that come out of our own mouth.
Allison Tyler Jones: For sure.
Drake Busath: That’s what really sticks. And so if you get a chance to write that success story down and relay it to someone else, then it sticks and becomes part of you. The booty story, I don’t know where that started, but I don’t want to know. Maybe.
Allison Tyler Jones: I actually can’t even think where it started. Probably almost all of my best ideas-
Drake Busath: Desperation.
Allison Tyler Jones: … come from somebody really naughty. Yeah.
Drake Busath: Desperation. That’s where our best ideas come from, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And I’ll leave on this one. If you have some kid that is literally just going to burn it down, just irretrievable, they’re on the floor. There’s snot coming out of their nose, they’re just not going to do it. My secret to that is peel them off from the parent if you can. And I just say, “You know what? You don’t have to do this.” And they’ll look at you. And I’m like, “We don’t have to take pictures. We don’t have to.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Because so often they’re trying… they’re that kid that’s just trying to get the attention. They’re trying to co-op the whole thing. And then they’re like, “What’s the catch?” And then usually I’ll say, “Look, what I was going to do when we were done is I was going to go up front. Did you see all that candy up front? I have bags. We were going to put some stuff in it. But look, you don’t have to have that because you probably don’t even really like candy anyway, do you?”
Allison Tyler Jones: And then they’re like, “Well, yeah.” I’m like, “Okay. Well, do you think, I mean, again, you don’t have to, but we could maybe just do a couple of pictures, and you could tell me where you want your mom to sit, where you want your dad to sit, where would you like to sit?” And so then they just start… Because usually it’s a middle kid that has never been-
Drake Busath: Really?
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s usually a middle kid that has never been able to control anything, who’s just shoved aside. And then-
Drake Busath: That was me, by the way. I grew up the middle kid. Yeah. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: I just let him control everything. Okay. “Well, Drake, where do you think mom should sit? You tell her where? Okay, you want her there? All right. Do you think she should scoot over a little bit?” And then I’ll just let them tell everybody where to go. And then they are literally mine for the rest of the shoot, with some modifications for age and personality. But usually that just putting down that tug of war rope is enough to get them to go interrupt the whole pattern.
Allison Tyler Jones: Because when kids are like that, very often, there’s a whole pattern with the family, right? Then they’re trying to placate, they need to get out of their pain, you to be there. They’re paying you to be there. The whole thing’s burning down. So they’re doing anything they can to placate. And I’m like, “Oh no, you don’t even have to be in the picture. I’ll just take the picture with everybody else in the family. It’s totally fine. I’ll have your sister hold your dog. No problem.” They don’t want to do that.
Drake Busath: Right. They’re rebelling against this narrative that’s been pounded into them. They’ve probably been over-rehearsed by the parents and you’re just breaking that. You’re throwing a grenade into that narrative and then the child’s confused probably a little bit, it sounds like.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Drake Busath: I love that.
Allison Tyler Jones: And usually they’ve got my number by the end, and then they’ll start spinning it a different way to where they got me, but then it’s time for it to go. I don’t have to raise them, I just have to do enough to get what I want. And I’m a master at getting what I want.
Drake Busath: I know you are. Well, that confused look too. I love that. That, “I’m not quite understanding you and your motivation.” My method for that is scary stories. I’ll tell inappropriately scary stories. And I’ll get that look. And I think those expressions are so wonderful when their neck just stretches a little bit or they’ll lean forward a little bit into the story because they can’t believe you’re saying something like that. You’re using an appropriate edgy language. And mine is, “Is your teacher super mean like mine was? Did she ever lock you in the supply closet and turn the lights out?”
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh.
Drake Busath: Though, I love that little, “I don’t know what to think of this man. He’s not funny. He’s a little…” But their eyes widen just a little bit and it can… So it’s a different method for-
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m sure you’re good at naughty.
Drake Busath: … that same… to break that narrative of, “We’re going to go and sit and smile and look good to the camera and behave. And I love you.” You don’t have to behave. Do what you want.
Allison Tyler Jones: You don’t have to do anything. One little girl, we got everybody perfectly posed, and she was like borderline albino, white blonde hair. And as I’m setting everybody up, I can tell that she’s getting more and more distressed. I’m thinking “Does she have to go to the bathroom, what’s going on?” And then I’m getting ready to just take the first shot. And I look up and she just burst into tears. Her face is beet red, tears running down her face.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I said to her, “What is wrong?” And she’s like, “I don’t want to do this.” And it was a middle child that had been, like you said, overly threatened, overly programmed. She was stressed out. She didn’t want to do it. So I pulled her off, told her, “You don’t have to do this.” And as I’m saying this to her, “You don’t have to do this.” Her mom’s, “Yes, she does.” And I just looked at the mom like-
Drake Busath: Trying to pull her back in. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m like, “Okay, I’m hearing this and I want to hear this.” So I pulled the mom off and just said, “Just give me a minute.” And so I told her, “You don’t have to do this.” And I said, “But you know what? I was thinking, I really do need your help, because your grandpa, I was thinking it would be so funny if we did a shot where I had him stand there, and then you snuck up behind him and we act like we’re going to take a picture of the two of you together, and you spanked him on the bum really hard.”
Allison Tyler Jones: And she’s like, “Oh, that would be so funny.” And I’m like, so I go, “But we don’t have to do that. I just thought it would be really funny. Would you like to do that?” “Oh yeah, I would like to do that.” I said, “Okay, well then I just need to get a few pictures before we do that one. Would you be willing to be in those pictures and you can tell me where to put the person, whatever.”
Allison Tyler Jones: And so then she was just, as long as she had some control… As soon as she had some control, she was mine. And those spanking pictures, her grandpa was… I mean, he handed up like she hurt him so bad, and it was just cute, and she thought it was so funny. So sometimes I think just getting off their back, getting the parents off their back and letting them feel like they have some autonomy that they can have some control, it can really make a huge difference.
Drake Busath: Beautiful. I love it.
Allison Tyler Jones: All right.
Drake Busath: I’m taking-
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I think we solved a lot of problems of the world.
Drake Busath: I didn’t take notes, so I’ll have to listen to this conversation later with the whole staff, by the way. We’ve done that before, everybody sat around and had, “Hey, today’s meeting is going to be an ATJ Podcast.” And we learn a lot, so thank you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, thank you. Well, I appreciate you doing this, and I want to come up in between your Italy trips. We still need to do that sales thing. There’s things we need to be doing.
Drake Busath: We need to, and I wish we could be here now when the garden’s just perfect. We’ve had a rain. It’s springtime. It’s just fabulous. Things are blooming. And anyway, it’s just wonderful. I love it. We had a truckload of trees delivered today. We just keep planting and planting and changing out of sheer boredom. So I’m really excited and enthused right now.
Allison Tyler Jones: One thing I’ve learned about you is that when you’re bored, good things happen.
Drake Busath: Well, okay. Thank you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you being here.
Drake Busath: Was fun as always.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.