Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the rework.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. If you’re a human being, I can guarantee that at one time or another you struggle with self-confidence, and there’s nothing like starting your own business, especially a portrait photography business, to give a good knock to that self-confidence on the regular. Well, today’s guest is Alicia Insley Smith. Alicia is a portrait photographer from Fort Mill, South Carolina, and the owner of Insley Photography.

Allison Tyler Jones: She started off as a darling little intern working for a local portrait photographer, and she now has a thriving, successful portrait business of her own. Alicia didn’t always have the confidence in her business and in herself that she does now. Like many of us, she has been on a journey to find that confidence, and she’s joining us today to share how she got there.

Allison Tyler Jones: She’s going to share how she went from being afraid to speak her opinion to not being afraid to be the expert, how she went from asking clients what they want and hoping they would buy something to planning for the end in mind, how she went from not doing consultations to pre-visualizing with the client, the product, how much it’s going to cost, what they’re going to wear, and planning everything ahead of time.

Allison Tyler Jones: I know that you’ll see yourself in many of Alicia’s experiences and be inspired by the choices that she’s made and the success she’s experiencing through her journey to confidence. Let’s do it.

Allison Tyler Jones: So today in the podcast studio, I’m so excited to welcome Alicia Insley Smith, and Alicia is one of our favorite Art of Selling Art students and MindShift members. And so you’re joining us today from?

Alicia Insley Smith: I’m in Fort Mill, South Carolina.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love it. I hear that southern gentle woman in your voice. So Alicia, tell us a little bit about you. Give us an intro about your business and tell us what you do and about your business.

Alicia Insley Smith: So a little intro, I have been doing photography forever. I started at Van College as an intern for a portrait photographer.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, that’s nice.

Alicia Insley Smith: Grew into a hobby that later grew into a business that I did wrong for a while.

Allison Tyler Jones: As did we all?

Alicia Insley Smith: Now I have a studio space in Fort Mill, South Carolina, and I primarily photograph maternity and newborn and then occasionally families and head shots.

Allison Tyler Jones: What is your business name?

Alicia Insley Smith: So my business name is Insley Photography. Insley is my maiden name.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then the photographer that you worked as an intern for, how did that help you to be an intern?

Alicia Insley Smith: It helped me know what the business is supposed to look like. She had a studio space. She was mostly families and occasionally weddings. She had an assistant, and then she had an intern. And she did film and digital at the time. I’m dating myself.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, okay. And so that was when you were in college?

Alicia Insley Smith: Mm-hmm.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then you went off. When you weren’t interning anymore, when did you decide to start your business?

Alicia Insley Smith: So I started my business, like I said, as a hobby on the weekends when I wasn’t working for Debra. I just did friends and family at the time. So I didn’t really start the business for a couple years. And then it was very part-time. And then I had babies.

Allison Tyler Jones: And you have two boys?

Alicia Insley Smith: I have two boys. 13 and 10.

Allison Tyler Jones: And how old are they? Oh, 13 and 10. Oh, I love that. Oh, the fun years.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: It really is. Yeah, no, that’s so fun. Okay, so fast-forward, you said that you did it wrong. You started it as a hobby, which I think so many of us did on the side. And then how do you feel like you got from hobby… Specifically, what do you think what were you doing wrong?

Alicia Insley Smith: So in the beginning, Debra was doing in-person sales, selling products, all the things. And then digital look off, and everybody was doing digital and everybody was asking for digital files. So I switched to all-inclusive, but I wasn’t really charging anything. I mean, I was charging peanuts, and it was a mess. I wasn’t making money, but I was spending money on education and all these things, trying to figure out how to make it work. I also lived in the middle of nowhere at the time. And so I just wasn’t really building a business. I was just one-off clients here and there.

Allison Tyler Jones: Which I think is interesting that you worked for a portrait photographer who had a brick and mortar studio that was selling physical product, because most people that are in the industry right now would not have had that experience. Many started in the early 2000s when digital came about, and that’s when they came into the industry.

Allison Tyler Jones: They didn’t really know any other way, but you did. And where you just thinking, “Oh, I don’t have a brick and mortar studio. I don’t want to deal with all of that. That’s going to be hard. It’s going to be so much easier to just do digital and give them the files,” or what were your thoughts there?

Alicia Insley Smith: I think it was more I was a people pleaser. And that’s what they were asking for, and so that’s what I gave them. I didn’t realize how that would affect anything later. And when I say that, I think my light bulb moment was when my kids came along and I wanted those things on the wall. I wanted those albums for my kids.

Alicia Insley Smith: And then a few years later, talking to a friend of mine, she moved. She got divorced. I photographed three of her pregnancies, three of her newborns. And she moved into this new place and she was like, “Alicia, I haven’t put any of these photos on the wall.” I was like, “Well, let’s get them out,” thinking they’re in a box. She was like, “No, I never printed them. I don’t know where any of those files are you gave me.”

Alicia Insley Smith: And I was like, what have I done? I mean, it’s not good for her. I mean, for me, I can go find them, but that doesn’t help her. And I realized at that point I was like, wait a second, we have to change this, because she didn’t have any of them to even put up.

Allison Tyler Jones: And I think we all have those experiences that lead you to go, wait, am I serving my client to the best of my ability? So fast-forward a little bit because I’m sure there were many fits and starts, so how did you get to… You’re in your own studio space now. What does that journey look like?

Alicia Insley Smith: I actually started looking for a space, and I found a shared space in town. We moved here about seven years ago, and I found the shared space a couple years later. And so I did that. So that was a little jump. I just moved in part-time sharing with other people. Everything was set up. I just had to bring my camera and my clients and we were good.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that’s such a good dipping your toe without having… That’s mitigating your downside, right?

Alicia Insley Smith: Right. And so that was also a very short lease. She let me do it the first time for six months, and I stayed for three years.

Allison Tyler Jones: Love that.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: So you were there for three years, and then you decided you wanted to do your own?

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah. They raised the rent on her building, and so I was like, okay, if I have to pay more, maybe it’s time to do it on my own. So I found this great space, which I’d actually been looking at for a while. And then I also had another photographer friend who came in with me for the first year, so we split it.

Allison Tyler Jones: And how did that work out?

Alicia Insley Smith: It worked out great for me because she only used it once.

Allison Tyler Jones: Amazing.

Alicia Insley Smith: But I felt really bad because she’s paying for it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, it wasn’t worth it to her.

Alicia Insley Smith: I mean, she had all these grand ideas, but the follow through didn’t happen.

Allison Tyler Jones: Interesting. So now you’re primarily newborns, that’s your specialty, and maternity. And then are you doing anything other than those two? Do you do families as well?

Alicia Insley Smith: I do families. Of course, my babies come back. And then I get asked for head shots all the time, so I do those too.

Allison Tyler Jones: But as far as what you’re advertising for and what you’re putting out there, you really… Why newborns? Why maternity? That’s just where your heart is?

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes. I think maternity was probably my first love. It’s just the first time I saw true maternity portraits, I was like, those are amazing. I would like to do those. And then the newborns came later, and that really became a passion after my kids were born. It’s hard for me to say, but I’m really good at it. I’m really good with babies.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, you are.

Alicia Insley Smith: I just have always been good with babies. I meet a lot of photographers who are like, “Oh, it’s really hard.” And yes, it’s work.

Allison Tyler Jones: But I think you have a really calm personality, and I find that most really great newborn photographers have that kind of zen quality. I think that’s a requirement.

Alicia Insley Smith: Well, the babies feed off of your energy. So if you’re stressed or high-strung or worried, then they feel that and they’re awake looking around like, what’s happening? What are we doing?

Allison Tyler Jones: Too loud. Too crazy.

Alicia Insley Smith: But it’s interesting, they don’t seem to notice older siblings. Their loud and crazy just gets ignored, and I’m not sure what that’s about.

Allison Tyler Jones: Probably because they’ve been hearing it since they were in utero, so it’s just the soundtrack of their life.

Alicia Insley Smith: Right.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that’s fun. So when did you take the Art of Selling Art? How did you find out about the course, and how did you come into our world?

Alicia Insley Smith: Okay, you’re going to laugh at me. As soon as you started posting videos on Facebook, I knew you were planning some kind of education. And I was like, whatever she’s doing, I want to find out. Because I had seen you speak at Imaging, so I knew what you were up to way over there in Arizona.

Allison Tyler Jones: Way over there in the desert.

Alicia Insley Smith: Right. And I knew that I was not doing everything. I know what’s supposed to happen, but I was still missing pieces.

Allison Tyler Jones: Looking back, what do you feel like those missing pieces were? Because I mean, Alicia, you got to give yourself a huge credit. You went from shoot and burn hobby to your own portrait studio, thriving business.

Alicia Insley Smith: I think for me, there were little things like the confidence to say, “That doesn’t really make sense.” I don’t say it like that, but you know what I mean. And then the confidence to walk them through the clothing and tell them when something’s not going to look right. I think before I was just afraid to be the authority in a lot of it. And then planning for the end, I knew that that’s something we should be doing, but I still get a lot of people who don’t know what they want.

Alicia Insley Smith: And so instead of giving them an idea or a ballpark, I was giving them a price list and letting them figure it out. And then when they came into order, they were wanting to order way over their budget. So it works much better when we talk about what they want from the beginning. So if they want an album, it’s going to cost this much. And then they have that price in their mind and then they’re going, “Okay, well, that sounds good,” or, “Oh, let’s talk about this because that’s more than I thought.”

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, and I think even if you’re working as an intern for another photographer, sometimes you don’t see all the pieces of what went into that. If you were assisting or helping shoot, you might not have been in maybe the sales meetings.

Alicia Insley Smith: I was never in the sales meetings. I was helping shoot. I was putting together frames. I was talking to clients.

Allison Tyler Jones: Basically shooting and production. And that sales part of it is such a huge element. And you’re a chill not in your face person, but I think the confidence thing is so huge for everybody.

Alicia Insley Smith: I think so too. I mean, even now since I did the course the last two years since, I feel like my confidence has gone way up.

Allison Tyler Jones: Specifically for your Alicia, you, confidence wise, how did you make that leap? Because everybody can say that they want to have confidence, but what did you do to allow yourself to step into that?

Alicia Insley Smith: I don’t know that there’s one thing, and I don’t know that there was a big leap. I think it’s gradual. It’s more experience in following the plan. I made it so that at the consultation we had I want to say a PowerPoint, but that’s not the right word, but a presentation, a keynote. So we walk through the questions to ask.

Alicia Insley Smith: We walk through what they are thinking they might like. I show them the products. We talk through specifically what they’re going to do, and then we talk about clothing. And they always have ideas, but then talking them through specific things that make sense and explaining why their idea might not be the best.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, like you said, that confidence to say that’s not going to work, I mean, in a really kind way. For example, I’ll say, “That is really great for real life, but on camera you’re not going to be as happy.”

Alicia Insley Smith: And I have gotten good too at showing them examples. The one thing I get all the time with maternity is all the moms, 90% of the moms, choose one of the long black dresses. And then the husband will be like, “I’m going to just go wear a polo and khakis.” I’m like, “Those two don’t want to go together. Let me show you why because I’ve had that,” and then I show them a dad dressed up in a nice long sleeve shirt and long pants that are dark. And then they’re like, “Oh, yeah, that does look better,” and then they’re much happier with their images on the wall.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And I think when you first start, or if you are a people pleaser, which I can say people pleaser anonymous chapter president over here, the tendency is to come from a place of like, okay, well, what do you think and what do you want? Hi, I’m here. What do you want me to shoot? And then when I’m showing you the images, what do you want to buy? When we’re doing the consultation, what do you want to wear?

Allison Tyler Jones: But flipping that around a little bit and saying, okay, so here’s what we’ve done for others in the past, and here’s what I see with you. Tell me some of your thoughts, and then shaping what they’re coming at you with because you have that experience that khakis and a polo is not going to look great with a long black dress. But if you’re going to stay in people pleaser mode, well, I don’t want him to feel bad and I want him to buy it.

Allison Tyler Jones: And maybe he liked that outfit. It’s like, no, they’re not going to like it, but they’re not going to know why they won’t like it as well as somebody else that they see on the wall. So you have to help them see the vision. So just making that mind shift into that confidence. I think that’s really hard when you’re a nice people pleaser.

Alicia Insley Smith: It is, and it takes practice. The first time you try it, it may not go so well. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you get and the more your confidence grows. And I think it’s all building a slow progression.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and don’t you feel like that sometimes even you’re like, man, the more I give you my opinion, actually the better it is. Then they’re like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, thanks. Great. That’s great.” They actually really wanted. That was so surprising to me.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah, I think so too. It is hard because they don’t necessarily know how to express what they want. They have an idea in their head, but they don’t really know how to execute it. And it’s our job to explain the execution and help them figure out what they need to do to get that vision.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, because we know all the lighting, all the lenses, the props. That’s just the water that we’re swimming in all day every day. But I think sometimes we don’t give ourselves credit for having that knowledge. We don’t think that we’re an expert like, oh, who am I to think that I could tell somebody what they should or shouldn’t do? It’s like, no, actually you have to. That’s your job.

Alicia Insley Smith: And when we don’t, things break down.

Allison Tyler Jones: So being the expert in helping them with their clothing, when you were talking about specifically planning for the end, so how did that change for you once you had taken the course and worked through that?

Alicia Insley Smith: I mean, I feel like they’re now more prepared. The ordering appointments go much faster because we already know what we’re doing. I already have pre-populated either wall images or album or both for them. So they have an idea. And sometimes I’ve even gotten real specific. We already know what color their album’s going to be, what’s going to be on the cover.

Alicia Insley Smith: All the things are picked out. And that’s much better for newborn clients because they’re tired by the time we get to ordering. They’ve just had a baby. They’ve had a photo shoot. They don’t want to make more decisions than they have to.

Allison Tyler Jones: I mean, of course, that makes sense, but really when you’re doing a sales appointment with your clients, you’re dealing with somebody who’s profoundly compromised. I mean, really a super tired mom. You have had to just strip it right back to the bare essentials. And so what do you feel like you’re doing in the consultation to get them prepared? Because usually it’s the consultation you’re doing before they have the baby?

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes. And that’s why I think it works best for the maternity and newborn clients. I think that’s why I gravitate towards them, because I actually do the planning for both sessions before they come in the first time. So we’re planning that maternity and we’re also planning the newborn. And I do that for the most important reason is because planning before the baby gets here makes the most sense.

Alicia Insley Smith: We got to plan all the things so that when your baby arrives, I can say, “Okay, remember, this is what you’re wearing. This is what you’re bringing for your two-year-old. This is what you’re bringing for the baby. See you at 10:00.” For me, I only do newborns in the morning. That’s the only option.

Allison Tyler Jones: So that’s interesting. Love that. Not when is it convenient for you.

Alicia Insley Smith: No. I often have clients who are like, “Oh, well, my husband’s back at work. Can we do it in the evening?” No, your baby’s hungry in the evening and restless. It’s not good.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s the witching hour.

Alicia Insley Smith: It’s a four-hour session and we’re not doing that if you have a toddler.

Allison Tyler Jones: No.

Alicia Insley Smith: No. So they’re only in the morning. That’s it. And I’ll tell them. If they ask for a later time, I’ll be like, “This is what has happened in the past. Let’s avoid that.” So the maternity and newborn thing. I also like to do it together because I have found if we do maternity and we get carried away, maternity is fun and it’s whimsical and they like all the outfits, and I love that for them.

Alicia Insley Smith: But if they get too carried away, then at the newborn they’re like, “Oh, I really can’t get those things I really wanted.” And I find in 10 years, the ones that they appreciate the most and still have on the wall is that first family photo.

Allison Tyler Jones: For sure. You don’t know that until you have the experience. And then being able to guide them I think is so helpful and so helpful for a mom, especially a first time mom, coming to you and you have older kids. You’ve photographed tons of babies. And to be able to just have you with your energy sitting there saying, “Okay, look, it’s got to be morning. This is why. And no, your husband can’t do khakis and polo. Here’s why.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And then it’s just like, okay, I’m in good hands. She’s not going to just let me… Even somebody that might come in bossy and have thoughts about what they want to do, they actually calm right down when you come through, “No, I actually know what I’m talking about,” in the kindest, gentlest, guiding way. You’re not acting like a diva. You’re just being the expert.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. So then in the consultation, you’re planning on maternity, you’re planning the newborn, so you’re just getting the idea with them of this is what we’re shooting for.

Alicia Insley Smith: Well, we talk through everything like for maternity, do you want maternity just of yourself? Do you want some with your husband? Are we including younger siblings? What I get asked often here is, are we including pets? Everybody wants to bring in their first fur baby when it’s their first baby.

Alicia Insley Smith: And then we talk through what that looks like and what they need for that. And we talk about where these are going to live in their home. I find a lot of times maternity, they want for the wall, and then newborn, they want more images, which makes sense, right? They want all the baby details.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, baby details for an album?

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.

Alicia Insley Smith: And I do a lot of maternity for the wall and then that family photo.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, the first family.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. So before you signed up for the Art of Selling Art, you were selling product?

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes, just not well.

Allison Tyler Jones: You were probably doing fine, but you just made a few adjustments.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: After you took the course, did that change how you did the consultation?

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes. I think before I was selling a lot of little because they didn’t know what to ask for, and I didn’t know how to talk them through what they really needed. So I was selling a lot of eight by tens, a lot of five by sevens, and now I hardly ever sell either of those.

Allison Tyler Jones: What specifically changed that?

Alicia Insley Smith: I think planning for the wall. If they want a family image, where is it going to go? And a lot of moms here want to put images in the living room or the entryway. I do a lot of gallery walls. So we add to a gallery wall. And then I have them send me those wall photos so that we can mock it up and show it to them. And then they quickly realize an eight by 10 family image is too small.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, so just the pre-visualizing with them in that consultation. And then it sounds like you’re really nailing that down with them before they have the baby.

Alicia Insley Smith: Very specific. Yes. That’s the goal.

Allison Tyler Jones: We’re photographing them. They’re tired. They’re broken. They’re sleep-deprived.

Alicia Insley Smith: They’re not broken, they’re just tired.

Allison Tyler Jones: They’re just tired, kind of broken a little bit. And then they come in to see the images still tired, still in that very much newborn phase, but you already have the plan that you have created based on that framework.

Alicia Insley Smith: I am showing them the best family image already on the wall, mocked up to their space. And then I’m showing them maybe an alternative or two depending on what we talked about. I rarely ever have newborn clients anymore that want to change clothes. They don’t do that anymore because we talk through it and they’re like, “Nope, this is what we’re going to wear.”

Alicia Insley Smith: And then most of my newborn clients end up doing the album, so then we go through and look at the album I’ve created. And then if there’s anything that mom really loves more, we make those the bigger images in the album.

Allison Tyler Jones: It sounds like you’ve just really taken that consultation pre-visualization to the nth degree of helping them pre-visualize, okay, here’s the product. This is what we’re shooting for. This is what other people have done and like. This is where it’s going to go in your home. Then there’s money attached to that, like quoting a price. Was that hard to start doing?

Alicia Insley Smith: Oh yeah, and I don’t really know why.

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. It just is.

Alicia Insley Smith: It just is. It’s hard.

Allison Tyler Jones: So then you’re talking about the money, and then also the clothing. And so really what I’m hearing you say, and this is what I found to be true for us too, is that when you first start, you’re so thrilled that anybody even walked in would pay you to do something with your camera that you’re like, okay, whatever. What do you want? Tell me. And here’s all the things, and what do you think? Rather than, okay, here’s how it works.

Allison Tyler Jones: This is why you would hire me, why you would want me. And you wouldn’t want me for these other things. So you’re helping them to know what you are good at. Here’s how much it costs, and then here’s some things that will help make it easier for you. Morning session, the correct clothes, not changing 55,000 times. And then it’s just they feel like they’re in great hands. But from your perspective, how much easier is that to shoot for? How much easier is that to shoot with?

Alicia Insley Smith: So much easier.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then you’re not in a three-hour sales meeting with somebody who’s brain-dead because they’re tired. It’s like, hey, remember, we talked about this. We already have it nailed down. You knew how much it was. So here, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And they’re out and it’s done.

Alicia Insley Smith: And I think the other thing that I changed since this course is including the dads from the beginning, including the partner from the beginning. Because if they come to the planning meeting, they know what’s happening and they’re involved in the whole process. So then at the end, they’re already on board.

Allison Tyler Jones: And was that hard to get the dads or the partners to come?

Alicia Insley Smith: No, it wasn’t really hard to get them to come, but I think before, I was afraid to encourage it. I felt like I was pushing maybe. And I also felt like as a woman, I don’t need my husband to be there for this. I don’t want his opinion. But in fact, when you’re tired and you’ve just had a baby, you do want his opinion.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, and not every relationship is the same. There are some that are much more traditional. I submit, there are plenty that don’t want to make the decision. They don’t like to make decisions. And so they’ll blame the husband, “Oh, I need him to look at it,” when really they’re the ones making the decision. They just don’t want to make it yet. So that way, if you have them there. So how are you getting the spouses, partners, husbands, wives, whatever, how did you get them to start coming? What are you saying to the client?

Alicia Insley Smith: I am just inviting them on the phone call to bring their partner with them, offering to bring toddlers too if they’re involved, just because it’s easier for both parents to come if babies come. If they say they don’t want them to come, asking, do they want to be involved in the process? Do we want to have a phone call with them? And sometimes I still don’t see them until the maternity session. But then after that, then me and that person are having a conversation too.

Allison Tyler Jones: During the session and talking about… And I do that a lot too, because the spouse sometimes just doesn’t want to do it. They don’t feel like they need it. But then once they’re there, they’re like, “Oh, this is really cool,” and then they are actually into it.

Alicia Insley Smith: Oh, yeah. And I’ve had dads who they don’t come to the phone call. They don’t come to the planning. And then once I meet them and we work together the first time, then by the newborn shoot, they’re like, “Hey, what about this? Hey, can we do this too?” They’re really into it, which is great. I mean, I love that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. So anything else? Any other thoughts that you have on just changes that you’ve made that have been helpful? I mean, I think you hit the mother load, which is confidence. Confidence and being an expert is the key to life.

Alicia Insley Smith: Well, and I think too, having the planning up front has saved me from overshooting. I mean, I still overshoot. I’m just guilty as charged. But if we talk about the maternity and their idea is, “Oh, I want to wear this outfit and this dress and this thing,” and then we get into it and I’m like, “Okay, where are these going to live?” “Well, really I need one of me and one of my partner on the wall.” Okay, so we don’t really need to do four outfits.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, right. It reminds me of an episode that we did a few weeks ago with Greg Daniel where he was talking about we get into this experience idea that we’re making the experience so amazing, and then the product becomes an afterthought. It’s like the Splash Mountain at Disneyland. You just get the, well, we had this amazing roller coaster, and then you got the little eight by 10 of you splashing down at Splash Mountain. That’s what that maternity can turn into.

Allison Tyler Jones: Also with a senior session or anything more where they’re having multiple… They’ve got their hair done, the makeup done. They’re feeling beautiful, and they’re having the experience, and you want them to have that, but really only as a function of what are we getting out of this? Why are we even doing this in the first place? Yes, I’m glad that you feel beautiful, but what are we creating?

Alicia Insley Smith: Right, exactly. And I was definitely doing the theme park thing before, and it’s a lot. And then if they don’t want them, then you feel crushed. You did all this work and you don’t even…

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and they feel overwhelmed, so you feel crushed. You’ve killed yourself. You’ve shot all of these beautiful images, and you’re like, wait a minute, you’re not buying any of these? And then it sets you up for that tug of war between the two of you. And then they kind of do want them, but then they get in that mode of, well, holy crap, I can’t spend 20 grand on maternity pictures. So then they go into reduction mode and start looking for reasons why they don’t want them. And then that can just sink the whole ship.

Alicia Insley Smith: Well, and it’s hard too on your ego when they’re like, “Oh, I don’t really like my hair in this one, or my toe looks weird.” You start feeling bad about yourself. And then you have to turn that mindset off and think, okay, wait a second, that’s not really why they don’t like this image.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, they’re trying to get it down. When you have that many images, it makes everything less special. Whereas when it’s you just nail one or two, there’s always a clear winner. And it’s just like, you know what? I felt beautiful. I felt like my husband loved me, my partner loved me. I felt like we have this life coming. They can really celebrate the real meaning behind it rather than here’s my 55 outfits.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes. And I honestly think the fewer I show them now, they’re seeing the best of the best, they actually seem more happy and satisfied with their images.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes, absolutely.

Alicia Insley Smith: You knew, but I didn’t know.

Allison Tyler Jones: No, I know. The reason I’m agreeing with you is because I learn that again and again every day. We’ve gone now to where with family portraits even, I’m showing one of a pose. So if we’re doing like, okay, here’s the standing pose and we’ve got the kids this way, I’m showing them one. So we’ll go in in pre-retouch. If one head isn’t good or whatever, we’ll go in and fix that one.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then we’ll show them one of those. And then, oh, we did a sitting one. Okay, we’ll show them the sitting one. I used to show five to seven or something, maybe three to seven images of a pose because oh, well, this head is cuter. She might like this girl better. No, no, no. One. They’re so much calmer because they don’t know Photoshop. They don’t know what you can and can’t do.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so when you’re sitting here and flipping back and forth, okay, we could take this face and put it here and this, and we’re moving quick, they’re just like, “Wait, I don’t know. It feels very scary.” Where when it’s done and then for generational, for sure, we’re doing that. Find the best one. Get all the heads. Here is the image, one.

Alicia Insley Smith: And I’ve started doing that. If there’s more than four people and there’s a toddler in there acting crazy, just picking the best one, swap in the face already, and showing them that one. And that’s always the one they buy.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s amazing. I think we read in or we create problems that aren’t there. They’re going to want to see more options. Sometimes I think, I don’t know if you feel like this is true, but when I have a brand new client that I’ve never worked with before, sometimes you will get, that’s when there’s like, oh, are these all the images that you took? And you’re like, you can’t handle the truth.

Allison Tyler Jones: You don’t want to see all the images I took. Trust me. And oh, are there more options? Because they’re used to maybe working with somebody that’s giving them 100 images or whatever, so they feel like, oh, am I making the right decision? But when you can see clearly, this looks great, it’s been handled, they just calm right down.

Alicia Insley Smith: I think it’s confidence in what you’re doing too. Confidence in knowing that these are the best ones and expressing that to them upfront that this is how it’s going to be.

Allison Tyler Jones: In your journey toward confidence, did you have… Because you’ve been in our group for a while, and you know that we get scaredy-cat about stuff.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes, still do.

Allison Tyler Jones: Always. And you think, okay, well, I need to know exactly how to do this, how it turns out perfect. And now you’ve been down the road long enough to know that there is no such thing. You just have to try it and then see how it works.

Allison Tyler Jones: So did you have any hiccups along the way? You tried something and then it didn’t work out, and then you made an adjustment. In that journey toward, what allowed you to suspend your fear and just move forward into some of these things that you were afraid to try?

Alicia Insley Smith: I think for me, just knowing what I was doing wasn’t working was enough of a push for me to try something. Now, was it smooth sailing? No. I did it wrong a whole bunch of times, still when I knew what I was supposed to do, because you get in that moment sometimes and you backpedal or you think, oh, I’ll just do it this one time.

Allison Tyler Jones: The old backpedal.

Alicia Insley Smith: It didn’t work the first time. It’s not going to work this time either. Occasionally, people ask, “Do you sell just digital files?” Well, sure, I can do that. But they’re never happy. They’re never happy. So I don’t want to say no, but I’m going to encourage them to look at this other thing and think about what makes more sense.

Allison Tyler Jones: And, like you said, having the experience of that first client that just listens to your process and just goes with it, you’re like, I love you so much. Come sit on my lap and let me kiss your face.

Alicia Insley Smith: Can you send me all of your friends, please?

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. People that are exactly like you. But you see how happy they are. They’re happy because they placed their trust in you. You do know what you’re doing, and you brought them all the way through the process. And then just even having one of those. The next time you talk to somebody that questions it, you can say, “Of course, I could just sell you digital files. But what we’ve found is clients are happiest when XYZ” and you now have that experience.

Alicia Insley Smith: And I mean, in my experience with newborns, they’re happiest with an album. And sometimes they don’t want that album. They’re like, “I don’t know that that’s for us.” I’m like, that’s okay, we can walk through all these other options. But in my experience, these are the happy clients because they get those images and they want all of them. I mean, not all of them, but you know what I mean. They want more than what they can put on the wall.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. You’re not going to decorate usually your entire house out of one newborn session, because they’re only going to be cuter, more fun. But you only have this neonate phase for a very short period of time.

Alicia Insley Smith: Nobody needs a three by three of their nose on the wall forever. But in an album, it’s super cute.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. I know. And I do get that too. People will say, “Well, I’ve never even looked at my wedding album.” I’m like, well, okay, but you’re 30 and you’re in the middle of raising kids. You know what I mean? So at some point, your kids are going to want to look at it. Your grandkids will look at it, and you will look at it more. The fact that you don’t sit down and look at it every single day doesn’t mean that it’s not worth doing.

Alicia Insley Smith: And you know what’s funny? My son, when he was about five, he went through this phase where every time people came over, he got out his newborn album and showed it to them.

Allison Tyler Jones: So cute.

Alicia Insley Smith: Oh my God, it was so cute. He just was so proud of showing that to people.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s so cute.

Alicia Insley Smith: Just hugs at my heart every time I think about it.

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. It’s funny, because with my kids, last year before we dialed up Christmas, I thought, you know what? I have all sons, and then our daughter is married to a woman, so we only have daughters-in-law. I don’t have any sons-in-law, so we’re heavy on the boys. And so I texted all my daughters-in-law and I said, “Okay, you are not going to hurt my feelings if you don’t like albums. They’re a ton of work. So if you’re not totally sold, basically release me from doing this for you. But if you love it, then I’ll do it. But be honest with me.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And it was so fun to get the text back because they’re like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no. We have to have that. Our kids, they know every picture. They know the story behind every one of them. They love it. It’s so much a part of who they are. We just love it.” So I think that helps me have even more confidence in selling albums to my clients, because you might not be looking at it every day, but your kids do look at them.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yeah, and they’re so proud of seeing those photos, even on the album or on the wall.

Allison Tyler Jones: They have a different purpose, but they’re equally valuable. I love that. Well, you’re such a joy to have in our group. I love having you in the MindShift membership. You always have great questions, and we just love having you in there with us.

Alicia Insley Smith: Well, thank you. I love being in that group and getting to know everybody and learning from everyone in there. I’m still learning always.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, we all are. Absolutely. So I have a couple of questions for you before we go. Is there any advice that you have for other photographers who might be struggling with maybe some things that you’ve struggled with in the past? Anything that you wish you’d known sooner?

Alicia Insley Smith: I wish I had known sooner that just because someone is teaching doesn’t mean what they’re saying is something you have to do.

Allison Tyler Jones: Tell me more.

Alicia Insley Smith: I feel like I have taken a ton of photography education, and not all of it made sense for me.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, for sure.

Alicia Insley Smith: And so finding someone whose opinions that you agree with makes more sense than just more, more, more. Because the more classes we take doesn’t necessarily mean the more that we’ll use. It’s very overwhelming, honestly.

Allison Tyler Jones: There’s so much. I totally agree. And also I think, like you said, for sure not everybody would vibe with me. Not everybody vibes with others. I always say before I can move forward with something in my business and change it, I have to feel it in my bones. You can tell me I can have it up here in my head, but then I need to really think about that. And then I need to think, what would that look like? How would I say that? How would I roll that out? Does that feel icky? Does that feel good? Does that feel weird?

Alicia Insley Smith: But then also, don’t wait for it to be perfect. You have to try things. Because thinking through a plan and waiting until you have everything lined up, sometimes they just never get out the door. Whereas sometimes just little bit imperfect is good enough.

Allison Tyler Jones: Almost always. And that’s the one that I struggle with the most being the oldest child, perfectionist. Especially with marketing or things like that, you just think, okay, the font isn’t perfect, or I’ve got to rewrite the, or just send it out and see what happens, and then iterate. Do something and then fix it.

Alicia Insley Smith: My best reply to email offer last year, I forgot the subject line, but they still replied to my email and booked in their holiday shoots.

Allison Tyler Jones: Maybe that was interesting to them. Oh, wait a minute, there’s no subject line. Maybe that’s a new technique.

Alicia Insley Smith: Maybe. I just know I’m a mess, but that’s okay.

Allison Tyler Jones: But I think you’re to be congratulated on executing imperfect execution because that’s the only thing that gets you… Because there’s no such thing as perfect execution. It doesn’t exist.

Alicia Insley Smith: Perfect doesn’t exist.

Allison Tyler Jones: But it will hold us back. Any favorite books, podcasts, or binges that you…

Alicia Insley Smith: Oh, I’ve definitely been into the Bridgerton Netflix series. I watched all those as fast they come out. Yes. And then I’ll watch the others again while I’ll wait for the next season.

Allison Tyler Jones: Of course, because you got to get caught up. It’s a world.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes. And then favorite books, I don’t know if I have a favorite book, but I really like Denise Duffield-Thomas, her business mindset kind of books.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so Denise?

Alicia Insley Smith: Duffield-Thomas.

Allison Tyler Jones: Spell that second name because we’ll link to it in the show notes.

Alicia Insley Smith: Oh, okay. D-U-F-F-I-E-L-D.

Allison Tyler Jones: Duffield. And then last name?

Alicia Insley Smith: Thomas.

Allison Tyler Jones: Denise Duffield-Thomas.

Alicia Insley Smith: So she did the Chillpreneur and the Get Rich, Lucky B. I won’t say that word on your podcast.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, Get Rich, Lucky. I’ve never even heard of those.

Alicia Insley Smith: Really?

Allison Tyler Jones: No.

Alicia Insley Smith: You should read those.

Allison Tyler Jones: I’m always looking for a new one, so that’s great.

Alicia Insley Smith: She’s very much in the same mindset of talking about not waiting for it to be perfect, but also setting it up in your mind and expecting yourself to win.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. I think that’s a good concept for right now, because I sense a lot of anxiety, fear, trepidation. I think everybody’s in a place of like, is everything going to be okay? I don’t know why, but I feel like we’re in a little bit of a trepidatious space. So that’s good. Thank you for those. So tell our listeners where they can find you. Are you on Instagram?

Alicia Insley Smith: I am on Instagram. My website is insleyphoto.com.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s I-N-S-L-E-Yphoto.com. And then what’s your Instagram?

Alicia Insley Smith: Instagram is Insley_photography.

Allison Tyler Jones: We will link to both of those in the show notes. Is there anything else that you want to send us off with? Anything that you want to say to the world at large?

Alicia Insley Smith: I want to say to the world at large, if you haven’t had a family photo this year, you should get one.

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely.

Alicia Insley Smith: It is important to your kids and your family to have those memories.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. And that’s why we do what we do.

Alicia Insley Smith: That’s right.

Allison Tyler Jones: Alicia, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. I think so many people are going to really relate to so many of your experiences. And I just love watching you grow, and I’m so glad that your studio is busy this summer.

Alicia Insley Smith: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: That you’re having to juggle kids and lots of shoots. So that is an amazing thing.

Alicia Insley Smith: It is. Thank you. Thank you for all your support.

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re a valuable part of our community. I hope you know that. Thank you so much. We appreciate you.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram @do.the.rework.