Recorded: Welcome to The Rework with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini workshops, and behind the scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do The Rework.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi friends, and welcome back to The Rework. As human beings, we all struggle with self-doubt at some point, but as business owners, it can paralyze us and cause negative interaction with clients. It can cause us to miss out on opportunities that we might otherwise have. Self-doubt really can be a problem.
Allison Tyler Jones: Today’s guest, Kerra Fischer, is a portrait photographer who has run a successful business for 10 years. She’s also a valued member of our Mind Shift community. She’s smart, she asks great questions, and she’s a learner, but she’s still, like all of us do, finds herself in a position with a certain client at a certain time, in a certain situation that causes her to doubt herself. I brought her on today to do a consulting call to hopefully help any of you who are having similar self-doubts. I just want you to know you’re not alone. We all have situations. No matter how much we’ve practiced, no matter how much we’ve learned, there’s always going to be those situations that come up that make you clench and just think, am I doing this right? Should I just be in another line of business entirely? I want you to listen to Kerra’s experience and apply the concepts in your own business. Run them through your own filter and find ways to shore up your self-confidence, especially as we head into the busy season. Let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: First of all, thank you for doing this. Tell our listeners who you are, where you are, a little bit about your business and all that.
Kerra Fischer: I’m Kerra Fischer. I am in business in Chillicothe, Ohio. Been in business for 10 years. I am a mainly portrait photographer. I don’t do events, weddings, anything like that. It’s more one-on-one person. That’s me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Love that. And are you primarily studio, do you do location? What?
Kerra Fischer: I do both. I have a studio. I find that it’s at minimum 50/50 because we do have a lot of beautiful areas around here, so I do photograph inside and outside. I have the option to do both, which is unique kind of for this area because a lot of people just go outside and take their camera.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, yeah. It’s nice to have it.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah. I do use studio lighting indoor and outdoor. I don’t do anything that’s natural light. Very, very rarely. It has to be the perfect light for me to turn that flash off.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, love it. You are a former student of our Art of Selling Art course and then a member of our Mind Shift membership. And the reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast, Kerra, is because you ask the best questions. I really love the way your mind works, and I think you think things through really, really well. And I don’t know if you know that we think that about you, but every time a question comes through from you we’re like, oh, it’s gold. Because I can tell that you’ve really thought it through. And so I think our listeners would benefit from some of the questions that you’ve been asking lately in the Facebook group and on our live Q&A because we’re artists and we have regular crises in our lives, right?
Kerra Fischer: Yes. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And you’re kind of in the middle of one right now a little bit. And I think the reason why your questions are so good is you’re so willing to just open yourself up and say, I don’t know.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And you represent all of us as entrepreneurs, as business owners, portrait photographers. Let’s talk about something that’s really been bugging you lately and how can we work on that together.
Kerra Fischer: One of my biggest things is I feel things when they’re happening. Recalling really stressful situations later is always really hard for me. I know the one situation that you’re talking about recently with the client where I made a change and I didn’t clearly convey all of the change beforehand. Had he been a new client or had they reached out to me, I would’ve said, okay, this change happened, this, this, this.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: Basically they would always get the digital with the print before. And I had made the change, and I am waffling on it a little bit that they don’t get the digital, they can add it. They get the web res files and then they can add the digital later. And he sat here and he was like, okay. And he wasn’t mean.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. I’m going to stop you for one second, because our listeners don’t know the backstory. Let’s start from the beginning and tell this is a client situation. What happened?
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Who are they and how did they come into your studio? Let’s just start there.
Kerra Fischer: Okay. A client, they’ve been with me for about five years. I did their maternity session, then newborn session, then the next maternity sessions. They have two children now. He’s been a good client, him and his wife, and they always come in and they always spend upwards of three to 5,000. And this time they came in-
Allison Tyler Jones: Great client.
Kerra Fischer: After I made changes. Yes. Great. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: Consistent, kind, pretty loyal. They come in and they value the product. But this time I asked them, I reached out because you had talked about the client calling process and I was trying to reach out to people that it was time.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: We haven’t done pictures since the baby was a newborn, and he’s a year and a half now. I’m like, this is the time for your family. And I wanted to do the white set because they always liked, whatever. It all worked out. But I reached out to them, but it was a reached out to like let’s plan this session. But we didn’t really talk about pricing because they never really waiver on pricing.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And they have been an existing client.
Kerra Fischer: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: You kind of felt like they love me, it’s great. Let’s just see what happens.
Kerra Fischer: Yes, yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: But you had made changes in your business before. Before when they had come to you, the session fee included X number of files, correct?
Kerra Fischer: No, no, no, no.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, no.
Kerra Fischer: I’ve never been a shoot and burn.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Kerra Fischer: Never.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sorry. Yes. Tell me what it included.
Kerra Fischer: What would happen is they had a session fee, and this one I didn’t even charge a session fee because I asked them. I was just trying to get bodies. Just needed people right now, there’s a little bit of a squeeze happening. Yes, typically session fee would be anywhere from 150 to 300, just depends on what my thought was at the time. And then let’s say they bought an album of 25 images, they would also get the files for that.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Kerra Fischer: And I don’t want to take the time to resize them. This is my file, this is your file, right?
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Kerra Fischer: But this time I had changed it to where I’m just going to do web res and then they can buy the files separate, which he was cool. Adds the album, does the wall group, all the things. And then he’s like, okay. And his wife turned around and said, we get the digitals, right, with the ones we bought? And I was like, well, I was like, you do get the web res files, but if you want to buy the principal digital files, then they’re supposed to be 150. And I immediately went, they’re $100 each.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay.
Kerra Fischer: I was just like, they had reached the four grand. And I was like-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I know. You guys cared. Yeah, sure.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah. And he just sat here and he was like, he just got very, very quiet and I am a person reader, and the energy just went… He wasn’t mean. He didn’t turn around and go, seriously? They picked out three, but he just wouldn’t even quite even look at me. And I was like, ah, I wasn’t prepared for it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: And going through your processes and learning from you, that’s why I love it because you really want people to have the words and the response built in, and I just didn’t have the response. And I’m like, please don’t. I need you to love me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: No one was mean, and they left and they were fine, and his wife was fine, but she even kind of looked at him like, are you okay? And I was like, ugh. It was just so stressful.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. That’s interesting because I think as portrait photographers we’re generally people persons, whatever.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And we like people and we can read people. I mean, that’s what makes us good at our job. Sometimes I think we don’t necessarily read things correctly because we have our layer of fear and self-doubt. When you feel that energy dip, my thought is if that happens again, and it will, it’s going to happen again in your life, in your career. There’s going to be something that you’re going to say or change and somebody’s going to have a reaction to that. Is there a world where you could have said something to him? Okay, I’m getting a weird vibe from you right now. Are we good?
Kerra Fischer: See, I don’t think I could have, because I feel like if I would do that in the moment, addressing it in the moment, I would probably have, and I have before in a sales session. I’ve had to walk out of the room and proceeded to hyperventilate.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: Don’t want that to happen. I’m going to circle, I’m going to go back to it and I’m going to send them a message somewhere along the lines of, I know-
Allison Tyler Jones: Let me just stop you because I think that what you’ve experienced is super common.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: What happens is we feel that something was weird, that we did something that the client didn’t like it, and we don’t want to address it in the moment because we don’t feel like we have the words to address it, okay.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Let me give you an example of when I used to work in banking. We used to be trained by, because banks are federally backed institutions, right? And so every year we would have to do this FBI training, these FBI agents would come in and they would train us in what you do if you’re in a bank robbery.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so one of the number one things that they try to train you is that if somebody comes in and they’re robbing the bank, you don’t ever want to let them take you to another location, okay. If they’re trying to take you as a hostage or whatever, you basically are like, look, whatever you have to do, throw yourself on the ground, pee on them, throw up on them, whatever. Literally, do not let them take you to a separate location because it’s better for them to shoot you right there and then run out and you’re going to get taken care of right there. You’re not going to be out in the desert shot in the head. Do you know what I’m saying?
Kerra Fischer: Right, right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re probably thinking, where are we going with this? How I relate this to this situation is that, because I was the same exact way. I would think, okay, well, they didn’t say they hated me. I could feel that the energy is totally negative. I know that something I just said totally either ticked him off or he’s disappointed in me and I’m feeling like they’re not going to like me and he’s never coming back and whatever. But I’m afraid to talk about that.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m afraid to address the elephant in the room. I’m basically letting this go away, and he’s going to go to a second location and covetch and not be in a good mood with me. Whereas I can address it right here, right now, and let’s have a little bit of blood on the floor, and I know what I’m dealing with.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah. I don’t want to see any blood on the floor.
Allison Tyler Jones: I know. But the thing is, so what you’re doing is you’re letting him leave with a crutch injury, which is even worse.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: You know what I mean?
Kerra Fischer: Right. Well, he did say, I want to have the files. And I answered, you will. You’ll have the web res ones, but if you want the printable ones, then they’re this much. We did address it a little bit. And the thing is too, if it was a new client, a different client, someone else, I wouldn’t be like, oh yeah, that’s what it is. It wouldn’t even…
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Kerra Fischer: It wouldn’t be heart grabbing, but because it’s them, I care about them.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. Right, right. Absolutely. I think there’s something there in just addressing it in a way to say that when somebody kind of makes a face or does something to just say, okay, I’m getting a weird vibe. Is everything okay? Can I answer any questions about that? Do you have questions about that? And then as we’ve learned before, having our frequently asked difficult questions, having our answers for those things, then we can then explain it. Okay. Let’s role play that for a second. Let’s role play that situation. You are you, and I’m going to… Actually, no, I’m you.
Kerra Fischer: Okay.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m going to be Kerra, and you are going to be the client, okay. You just gave me the weird look and you’re going to tell me what you think he would say to you, okay. And I’m going to give you some words. Good?
Kerra Fischer: Maybe.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. We’re going to try it.
Kerra Fischer: Okay.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m going to say to you, yes. With the album, you’re going to get the screen sized files. Absolutely you’re going to have those. If you would like them to be printable, they’ll be $100 each. And he has a weird face, okay. And so I’m seeing you sit back and then I’m going to say, is there confusion about that or can I answer any questions about that? It seems like you might have a question.
Kerra Fischer: Right. Well, every other time I’ve gotten the printable digital files and I like to have those.
Allison Tyler Jones: I understand. Yeah. Okay. You need then, what is your answer going to be for that?
Kerra Fischer: Well, I told him that they’re $100 each if he wants the printable, but he’ll have the web res.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: It was just quiet.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Let’s stay in role play for just a second. I’m going to keep you here. Okay. Because you’re the client. Remind me again, what did you say?
Kerra Fischer: I said to him, yeah, if you want to buy them individually for printable, then you totally can. They’re $100 each.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. I think there’s ways to say things, not what you say, how you say it, right?
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so we could say you will have the files of everything in this album.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’ll have those and those are usable for screens. If you want something that’s higher res for printing, then those will be permanently archived by me. Now, maybe you’re not doing that, but that’s why I said those will be permanently archived. Or if you want to purchase them, they’ll each be $100 each.
Kerra Fischer: Yes, I did say that too. Because his wife was sitting in this spot and he was sitting here, and I said, I now archive them because previously I didn’t because I don’t want to have five million hard drives to chase.
Allison Tyler Jones: Mm-hmm.
Kerra Fischer: I said, I will permanently archive them now, so if anything happens and you need to come back, but we’re doing printable. And he had reached the max of where he wanted to spend also.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Kerra Fischer: And I think that was, they looked at their phone and they were looking to see how much money was available to give me.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Kerra Fischer: That was kind of like, okay. Yeah. I think that kind of stopped them too, where he was used to spending about three or four and getting…
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, he was getting close to five. Yeah. I think that just calling it out in a really kind way, it doesn’t need to be like, what’s that face about? Is there confusion? Is there something that I can explain there? And then, okay, so be him. Now this is what he didn’t say to you because you didn’t ask him that. What you’re wanting to ask me as the client is why did I get it then and I don’t get it now?
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right?
Kerra Fischer: Do you want me to answer that or are you trying to answer it?
Allison Tyler Jones: No, I’m you.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Ask me.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah, why can’t I have the same thing I had before? Why can’t I have just all the high-res files now?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, what we’ve realized is that we want to make sure that we’re serving our clients to the best of our ability. And so most clients really just want the screen res. They’d want to have them for the website, their Instagram, that sort of thing. And the process to create a higher res file is a different process. And so we want to be able to provide those for you. I’m literally going off the cuff here and I’m not doing a great job of it. You can see how thinking about it ahead of time and writing down, so why are you doing it? Okay.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Actually that’s not a good answer. I don’t like what I just said.
Kerra Fischer: In my mind was going BS, BS.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, no, right. I know. What is your answer going to be for that? Because going forward, making change in your business with new clients, how are you going to talk about that?
Kerra Fischer: Well, and what I thought was, I like the idea of you archiving them, but really that’s why I had posted in the group. I live in this space where I’m by myself mainly, and I don’t have a lot of people to process things with. That’s why when I just throw things out there and then I’m like, and, and, and, it’s me going, someone help me dig through this. But as I processed it and added things, I’m like, you know what? I had told him, is because I want to archive them for you and then if anything happens, you can come back. And I don’t think I want to. I don’t think I want to be responsible for that file. And I haven’t been and that’s why I always sold the high-res files because I’m like, if anything happens, you got it. I don’t want to have to find it. I don’t want to hunt it down. And then I thought, no, I want to. I want to be the keeper of it. And so that’s what I told him.
Kerra Fischer: I said, well, now I will archive them for you and you don’t have to worry about it. We’ll give you the screen ones so you can share them. And then if you want the printable ones, then you can buy them individually, but otherwise I’ll archive them for you. And the wife said, “Oh, well you’re going to keep them now?” Because before I’m like, oh, I delete them after three months, right, because I ain’t got room to keep them. But in that process of going through it, that’s where I’m kind of like, maybe I don’t want to be the one that archives them, but again, that’s finding out what’s true in my business, but not necessarily what someone else does. But that’s what I had told him at the time was that’s why I’m making the change is because now I’m going to be the one to save them for you to permanently archive the high-res.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think it’s these kinds of situations with clients when you’re making change, whether it’s raising prices, stopping, shooting and burning, going to a finished product model, whatever, that at some point the client is going to say, yeah, I see how this benefits you because you’re going to get 100 bucks per file, but I don’t see how in any way, shape or form it benefits me.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so as we talk through that, as I just am noodling through this for you, is like, well, one of the ways that it benefits them is that first of all, we’ve found that our clients generally don’t do anything with the files and they end up losing them or having them a hard drive crash, and then they need them back from us anyway. And realizing that if I’m giving those out, that I don’t have any control. If something happens, I’m not taking care of you.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: You creating this album, included in the price of that album is permanently archiving these images. This is if you want to do that, it’s permanently archiving those images. Then the files are complimentary, the screen size files are complimentary for you to have with. And then if you want to buy something that will be printable, then I can create that for you, it’s just a different process. And then those would be X number of dollars each.
Kerra Fischer: Right. Right. I see the benefit of both. That’s where I’m like…
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And if you don’t want to, what he would say as the client and what I would say is the client is like, well, you gave them to me before, the printable, that was just included for free. I like that. Why don’t you just do that? And now you’re charging me $100 per. He’s obviously a nice guy. He wasn’t going to get into the weeds with you and duke it out, but what is your answer for that? Because somebody’s going to do that to you.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm. And if it’s a new person, it would be fine. But if it’s not a new person, that’s where it’s like, do they just become a VIP client and I’m just going to give them to them? I’m probably going to send them just a, Hey, I really value you and I want to go ahead and give you these. You weren’t aware of the changes, whatever. It’s 15 of them, that’s where I’m like…
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. I know. Right. And you have to decide, okay. Then going forward, what are you going to do? That’s why before we make any kind of change in our business, whether it’s pricing or whatever, and this is why I’m pretty slow to make changes in my business because I’m really quick to come up with ideas for change. But then in fact, just before we got on this call, Ivan and I were sitting here having a conversation about something and he’s like, “We could do this, this, and this.” And I’m like, “Okay, I love those ideas, but here are all the consequences of making that decision.”
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Here are all the things that clients are going to say about that decision. And so yeah, you can turn on a dime, yes, you can change, but then you’re stuck in a room with somebody having a conversation that’s super uncomfortable. If you’re going to make that change, then you think, okay, I’m going to sell the album. They’re going to get screen res files instead of the full res files with that album, and I’m going to charge them a $100 or $150 per file going forward. Then what am I going to do when my existing clients don’t like that?
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And you have to have answers. This would be anything, any change that you’re making in the business.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And the new clients are never hard. The new clients are never hard because they never knew it any other way. They have nothing to compare it to.
Kerra Fischer: Well, and typically he would’ve come to me in a way of, oh, it’s time to do these pictures. When I kind of went in it as kind of an artist project, and I’m like, Hey, if I just bring you in. If they had called me, then I would be like, okay, great. This is the new process. But it was one of those, it was coming from a place of fear and just hope.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: And again, it was uncomfortable. I kind of did it to myself. I will own the mess.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: I feel like it would’ve gone differently had they come to me first for the photo shoot because I would’ve explained then this is the way it is, and then they could run away before I even did it, but…
Allison Tyler Jones: Right, right. But that’s a good point too though, because think about that when you’re doing an artist project or you’re doing the calling program and bringing them in, they still need to go through, here’s what’s new. Here’s what’s new, we’ve raised our prices 10%. I’m not going to share that because who does that?
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: But if I’ve changed something fundamentally, so I’m calling you as my client, and I see that every single time you’ve come, you’ve done an album and you’ve got the files or you’ve done a piece of wall art. And what you normally do now is double the price or something like that.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Then I know, or let’s say that on our calling program, we’re calling people that we haven’t seen in a while, for three or five years. And so I know that Kaitlyn will say, “Okay, are we doing a consultation with them or do you want to just do a quick phone call?” And I’m like, “Okay, we haven’t seen them in five years. Things are very different now. We have to have a full consultation.”
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: If they were last year, then I can do a phone call, we can talk about what is it that we’re going to do and then talk about closes and concept and that sort of thing. Even though it’s an artist project for people, those of our listeners that are doing artist projects or doing a mini something or a limited edition session, you still need to bring them through your process if you’ve made some significant change. Let’s just say that you did it right.
Allison Tyler Jones: If you’re a portrait photographer, you know the next few months are going to be crazy. This is our busy season. And how to make the most of that busy season is to make sure that our client communication is in order, that we are not having clients showing up with the wrong clothing, that we are not having clients shocked in our sales appointments by our pricing and needing to go home and measure or going home and asking their husband, and then sales burning down and our clients not getting what they need and we not being able to build a sustainable business.
Allison Tyler Jones: How are we going to make sure that this season is the most successful that it possibly can be? Well, it starts by getting on the same page with your clients so that nothing is left to chance. And how I’ve done this is that I’ve spent the last 13 years revising my own internal consultation form, which by the way, you can download the consultation form that I use in my business absolutely free. But I realized after tweaking that form for about 13 years, that I needed something more. And it wasn’t just a pretty brochure and it wasn’t a price list with no context, because we all know you can send a price list to somebody and they’re still shocked by the price because they never looked at it or they have no idea what those prices even mean. It’s happened to all of us. What I realized is I needed a single printed piece for my client to take away with them that would leave nothing to chance and that it would allow me to educate my clients about the price range of my products. It would help them to understand what we would and wouldn’t be shooting for during their portrait session, actually creating a game plan for what is it that we’re actually going to be shooting for and let’s prioritize that.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then also something that would allow the clients to feel confident about selecting the clothing for their session and a printed piece that would allow them to share with their spouse and be able to put together the game plan for their session. I needed it to be part brochure, part getting ready guide, part last minute checklist and part consultation form because my consultation form was internal. I was keeping that form, but I wanted this printed piece to go with my clients, and I wanted it to be sexy and good-looking, and that they felt completely and totally cared for. I wanted all of this in a single booklet that the client would take with them at the end of their consultation. Now, I’ve been using this, I created about five years ago. It’s called the ATJ Game Plan Booklet, and I started off by using it in my studio, and I’ve been revising it for the last five years.
Allison Tyler Jones: And now for the first time ever, I’m offering it to The Rework community to use in your portrait studio. What’s included in that? In this course, it’s a little mini course, not a big long course. There’s a video lesson with me on how to use the Game Plan Booklet in your consultation. You’ll also have a video recording of an actual client consultation with me and a client using the booklet in real time. And then you’ll have layered PSD files of the game plan booklet that we use in our studio every day, as well as a PDF version of the latest and greatest ATJ consultation form. All of that is included for just a one-time payment of 295. Just 295 to completely change the way that you interact with your clients, the information that they have, how taken care of they feel by making things transparent to them, putting together the game plan for the session so that everybody’s on the same page. We all know what we’re shooting for, we know how much it’s going to cost, they know what to wear. Everybody’s on the same page.
Allison Tyler Jones: This is the document, this is the booklet that has changed my business, and I want you to have it too if it works for you. Go to dotherework.com/gameplan, that’s dotherework.com/gameplan and download that booklet and start using it in your business this busy season. I know that the Game Plan Booklet will be a game changer for your business.
Allison Tyler Jones: Let’s just say that you did it right, okay.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: I’m the client now, now you get to be you. And you’re calling me, and now we’re in a consultation, okay, with this same client. What do you think you could have said?
Kerra Fischer: In the consultation, I would’ve gone over the concept that I wanted because I wanted to do the all white set. Because I did want to build more families on white sets for my portfolio, and their family’s perfect for that, and their newborn session we did on a white set. I’d explain that, show her some concept images, and then I would say, “Okay. I know typically you get a 16 by 24 in an album or the box,” which I don’t sell the folio boxes anymore because there’s a lot of small prints in it. That’s why I want them to buy wall art.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: Typically you get that. Now, and I know that before you got the high resolution files with the album, whatever. Now you’re going to get screen size files and if you want to add those files, the printable files, you can for whatever price. That would’ve given them a chance to say, “Okay, wait.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: Then what would that be on price? And then I could go back and forth and they added a larger wall portrait than normal. And I did say, “Okay, well, do you want to step it back down to the smaller ones so that you’re closer to a budget you’re comfortable with?” You know what I mean? I did some things right, but yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: You did a lot of things right.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: This is the kind of thing that happens when we make changes.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Then I would say in those words that you just said to me, the thing that I might change, just tweak a little bit would be say something like, okay, since you were in, we’ve made a few changes for our clients. Again, they don’t care about our business and they don’t care about us. They care about how does it relate to them. And so what we’re doing now is that I know before it was like, here’s the high-res files because I’m not archiving anything. Now actually included with our albums, you’ll have screen files of all of those, and included with the price of the album is permanently archiving those images for you.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Now, if you would like to go ahead and have high-res files because you may or may not need high-res files, most people just want them for sharing on social media or whatever, then of course those will be available to you. Rather than throwing out the money, money, money, because really that might’ve been like, oh, well, as long as we have digital files of them, I mean we’ve got them printed, it’s fine. Do you know what I’m saying? And then you’re also letting them know, look, you’re smart. You guys have always been smart because you’re doing the finished product of the album.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re reaffirming that the finished product is the main thing because they probably really don’t care about the high-res. I think just massaging the language just that little bit, then you think, oh, okay, this is better for me because she’s now handling it. I’m not going to lose it on a hard drive. She’s got it if I need it. And I still have digital files.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: They’re just not printable really big or whatever. I think that’s kind of a better way to say it, rather than just rattling off, here’s this and it’s this now, but take a pause and slow down, because you’re a fast talker and so am I. And just say, “Hey, okay. I know what we’ve done in the past is this,” so I’m just going to reiterate that again. “Know what we’ve done in the past as you’ve done an album and you’ve had the files. Nothing has changed. We’ll still have the album, they still have files. Those files are for screens.” Those are for sharing on social media, you can put them on a screensaver, you can email them or whatever. Included with your album now is me permanently archiving these files for you so that if you have a hard drive crash, if you have whatever. Before I just deleted them, now I will have them for you. That is available to you. If you would like to go ahead and have the whole high-res file, then I can give you a quote for that. And then that way as you give them a quote for that, it’s kind of like what you did, again, we’re in too much of a hurry, right?
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: You said 150, but then immediately right there, you just discounted at $50 because you were scared. You can say, “I can give you a quote for that.” And then already he’s thinking, wait, I’m getting what I wanted. I already getting my album. I’m already getting my files. She’s going to permanently archive them for me. Do I really need, well, yeah, actually I really do want them. Okay, so how much would it be? And then you already know what they’re spending and you look at it so you could give them a better quote. “Okay, I’ll give you all these files for X number of dollars.” You know what I mean? It just gives you time to go away and give them a quote on it and then have the main purchase be the wall art and the album.
Kerra Fischer: Right, right. Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then that’s not scary. Do you know what I mean?
Kerra Fischer: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I’m not going to say you, I’m going to say we. We have to slow the freak down, but we are so pressured and our clients aren’t standing over us with a knife. They’re not standing over us with a razor blade like, you better answer me right now or I’m going to kill you and I’m going to tell everybody that you’re ripping people off and I’m going to ruin your name in this town. Nobody’s doing that. They’re just like, do you do that to people when you go somewhere? You just want to know how much is it going to cost me for this and how much is it going to cost me for that, and what do I get out of that? You’re just explaining in a slower fashion, this is why I made this change and this is how it benefits you.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then if you want to do this other thing, I can give you a quote for that. And then let them buy the main thing, which is the finished art and the album, and then give them a quote for the other thing that’s not as important, which is the digital files, printable digital files. And then maybe they buy that later. Do you know what I mean?
Kerra Fischer: Right. I did, yes. And I told them at the time, I did say something, if you decide you want more of the files, you can add them later. I’ll have them because I archive them now. It was just the choppy version of what I learned. It’s just getting the words in my head the right way and in the right order and it is, it’s coming from fear because it’s like, well, if they just say they don’t want anything, then… And I explain in other things, all the pressure of running a business and having to maintain all of the money, and if they say, I want nothing, then I might have to close my studio.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Right.
Kerra Fischer: That’s where it’s like-
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh no, that’s where we go. We go straight there. We go straight to living in a van down by the river.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. 100%. But you’re 10 years in.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re 10 years in, Kerra. It’s not a fluke. It’s not a fluke and you’re not an imposter. You’ve been doing this for 10 years and people love you. They love what you do, and we all need to evolve our businesses and we all need to make changes that are going to make us more sustainable and more profitable so we can keep doing what we’re doing, right? Nobody’s getting filthy rich off this. Come on, no.
Kerra Fischer: We’re just-
Allison Tyler Jones: We want to support our family and a few of our dreams, right?
Kerra Fischer: Right, right.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think just listening to you and how you talked about that, I see so much of myself a few years back where I was just dancing as fast as I could, and don’t you think this is so great? Please come. You’re freaking out rather than just being settled. And I’m looking, even though this is audio only for our listeners, but we’re on a Zoom call right now and I’m looking at this gorgeous image behind you. You’re so talented.
Kerra Fischer: Thanks.
Allison Tyler Jones: You have a gift. And if you could just settle into that and know, look, I know I will kill myself for these clients. I know that the finished product is going to be amazing. I know that I execute to the best of my ability. And then when you have that settled in your soul, then it’s easier to talk and you’re not so hustling and fast and just throwing things out there and discounting on the fly because clients can smell that and bad clients are like, oh, awesome, here we go.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: We’re going to beat her into the ground. Good clients do what he did, which is they get confused and they don’t want to say anything and they feel like, wait, am I being ripped off? Something’s not right here. This feels weird. And then we don’t ask the question for clarification so that we can keep that relationship on a transparent, authentic vein.
Kerra Fischer: Right. And that is huge to me. I never want anyone… That is more important to me. That’s a cornerstone of my business is being 100% authentic always. Just trying to make sure it’s the best for them and myself always. And if someone feels like I’m being sneaky, oh, that just rubs right through my soul. I don’t want that at all, ever.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, and the thing is, that’s not who you are and you won’t be like that. But when we talk too fast and we’re trying to gloss over, do you know what I mean?
Kerra Fischer: It feels like it, yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: It feels very shady. And we’ve all been in that situation we’ve been sold to in that way. And we’re like, dude, what’s the hurry?
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You seem so weird and so nervous. Or I say always the time with the guacamole at Chipotle.
Kerra Fischer: Right, right.
Allison Tyler Jones: No. And it’s like, okay, don’t make judgments about me and how much I can afford or can’t afford or that I’m going to be mad about the money. If you are settled in your body literally in how you’re talking to me, and you’re just like, oh yeah, we’re so excited about we’re now archiving.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: We found that this is really great. Most of our clients, they just want to know that they have them.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so that way we take that pressure off of you, but yet you still have screen files so that you can share and have access to them. And then of course, you’re so smart because you printed them.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: You have gorgeous fine art prints in a book.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’ve got them doubled. And then I have the high-res backed up, but then even if you want the high-res, I can give you a quote for that.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: That takes off the money, do you know what I’m saying?
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Rather than if you upgrade to the high-res and it’s only $100 each, ronco knives.
Kerra Fischer: Right. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Just take a little bit of the hustle out and recognize that you have not been doing this for 10 years because people don’t like what you do.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And because you’re not talented. You’re still in business for 10 years because you’re freaking good at what you do. Believe that. If you don’t believe it yourself, believe me, lean on my confidence in you a little bit and then just slow your role.
Kerra Fischer: Yeah. The slowing the role, it’s been rolling pretty fast for 40 years.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. I know.
Kerra Fischer: I’m cultivating the knowledge and ability to slow the roll.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. It’s the hardest thing I do, but I realize that when I am in that where you’re just scared and whatever’s coming out of your mouth rapid fire, and I realize I don’t have a good settled, solid answer for something, it’s just never going to end well.
Kerra Fischer: Right. And that’s what I try to explain when I talk to people, and that’s why I like your course and stuff because it gives me more words because I can, if I feel it, I know I can say it, I believe it and I know I can say it, then I have no issues being completely like, this is what it is. But when I kind of have an idea what I want to say, but I’m not 100% sure, then I just start grabbing at sentences and or just can’t breathe at all.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Kerra Fischer: Then it’s like, where are we going with this? I don’t know.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, and it’s also, so using that FBI analogy. If I’m going to get bad news, if I’m going to get bad news like somebody’s mad at me, disappointed in me, doesn’t like my pricing, doesn’t like how I do something, I’ve realized that I really do want it right now.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Because I used to think, oh, I don’t want that. I don’t want confrontation. I don’t like confrontation. I hate it. And so I’m such a chicken. And so I would think, okay, well yeah, yeah, I’m sure it’s fine. And then later I would make a big sale and then they would call 24 hours later and cancel half of it because I was hustling and doing the shook and jive and then they left and were like, whoa, we can’t spend that kind of money. I mean, I was just bamboozled, right?
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so rather than the idea of getting to yes on something, I really want to get to, no. I want to get to the point where tell me what’s bugging you, what’s hard. Let’s have a little bit of blood on the ground now so that we can patch it up and keep our relationship intact rather than you go away limping with a crutch injury and then you realize that you don’t want a relationship with me anymore and then you talk bad about me. Or even if they don’t talk bad about you, they just don’t come back. And then you’ve lost that great client that you love. You’ve lost documenting their family. And that’s a tragedy because they’re not going to have Kerra Fischer work and they’re going to go to somebody else that’s not going to be as good or that’s not going to care as much.
Allison Tyler Jones: To not be afraid and just realize, okay, let’s just know what the hard thing is right now. If he came back at you and if you said, okay, that was kind of weird. Is there something I can explain? It seems like you’re kind uncomfortable. How can I help? And he says, well, I feel like we got this before and now you’re charging $100. I’m not really sure about that. Then I say, you know what? Let’s look at what you want. What do you really feel? Because you’re going to have digital files of all of these screen files. I don’t use the word low res files because that feels like lesser than.
Kerra Fischer: Screen, yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: You have screen files for all of these. Let’s look at these and see how many do you really feel like you need printable digital files of? If I’m archiving the whole thing for you and you’ve already got this on your wall and these are already printed in the album, how many do you really need? Let’s figure out exactly how many you want and then let me put together a custom quote for you.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then you can go away and think about, look, they just spent $5,000. They’re amazing, great clients. I want to give them a deal or whatever.
Kerra Fischer: Right, right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You can go away and think about that. And so that feels better, I think, from the client end that you took a minute to read them, see their discomfort, and then let’s talk about it because now you’ve made a change. These are clients that have helped you get where you are.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so you can pivot a little bit with that.
Kerra Fischer: Right. It’s just being able to face it in the moment.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Kerra Fischer: Because my whole anatomy does not want to do that.
Allison Tyler Jones: I know, nobody does. But the thing is, this is why you don’t make some half cocked quote right then.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: Just, you know what? Let me go away. I’ve had to do that so many times. You know what? I don’t really know. Let me check on that and I’ll get back to you, even though I totally do know, but I’m two chicken to say it right then.
Kerra Fischer: To say it right. Mm-hmm.
Allison Tyler Jones: Just give yourself some time.
Kerra Fischer: Mm-hmm. This is a learning. This is a learning. I’m not going to send a message and I’m going to say, I would like you to come in so we can talk about a concept for you and then do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: Not scramble on the back end and potentially lose someone that I care about. I’m going to bandaid that, but yes, it’s a learning.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah.
Kerra Fischer: And it’s ridiculous how much learning I’m still doing in 10 years.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, I know. But I think it’s exciting and I love watching it because it’s only going to get better, Kerra. It’s growing pains in a way, but at the same time, this is just the little refinements that build your already good relationships even better.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think I wouldn’t worry about this. I think you can go back and talk to them and fix this, kind of talk to them about it, but then you’ve had this… First of all, congratulations on executing on something rather than just talking about it. You got them in, you called them, they did it, and you made a great sale. And then you’re going to go back and nothing’s irretrievable.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then you have a way forward the next time thinking, okay, what did I do? And that you allowed us in on that to see your mess, which really wasn’t bad.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You still got a great sale out of it, you have a great client. I thank you for letting us in on that.
Kerra Fischer: Don’t worry, there’ll be plenty more messes, I’m sure. And I always say, I’m always worried that you all are going to be like, oh my gosh, she’s having a problem. But like I say, I sit here a lot of times, I’m pretty much by myself. I don’t really have a team or people or anyone locally gets it because everyone else around me is like shoot and burn and there’s no one to talk about with things and I just have to process this stuff. And I am very transparent about probably too much.
Allison Tyler Jones: No, it’s great. And I think that’s the value. That’s why I love our Mind Shift member community because we are able to share the day to day, what’s happening. And most portrait photographers are solopreneurs, and it can be really lonely. Even if you only have one employee, you can’t necessarily share all the things because you don’t want them to be like, am I going to have a job tomorrow? You’ve got to be moms still.
Kerra Fischer: Right.
Allison Tyler Jones: You can’t let the kids be too worried. Yeah, I think that it’s great. I think you’re doing all the right things, you’re asking all the right questions and you’re going to just be able to see it quicker, learn quicker, and just move forward really Well.
Kerra Fischer: I shall try.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time and letting us see, like you said, the word is overused, vulnerable, but to letting us into your process and learn, and I think people are going to get something really good out of this.
Kerra Fischer: Okay. Thank you for having me.
Allison Tyler Jones: All right. You’re the best. Thank you so, so much.
Kerra Fischer: Bye.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram, @do.the.rework.
