Transcript: Design Your Sale

Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the ReWork.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. If you’ve ever walked into a sales appointment hoping that clients will buy and walked out with that dreaded, “We’ll think about it,” or, “We need to go home and measure,” then this episode is for you. I am joined by Ron Nichols, photographer and owner of the software ProSelect, to talk about designing the sale, how to stop winging it and start leading your clients through a clear, confident buying experience. Together we’re going to talk about how you can show art to scale, present polished mockups for your clients, and giving real-time pricing, which will collapse the indecision, build your trust with your clients, and close bigger sales fast. If you’re ready to take control of your salesroom and watch your average order soar, let’s do it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, today in the ReWork podcast studio, we have a very special guest, a good friend, and a very distinctive voice. So, if any of you have ever been at an Imaging USA or WPPI and have been walking the trade show floor and have heard the deep dulcet tones of Ron Nichols walking you through a ProSelect demo, you will know. This will sound very familiar. Today’s episode will sound very familiar. So, welcome, Ron Nichols, to The ReWork. We’re so happy that you’re here.

Ron Nichols: Thanks so much, Allison. It’s great to be here and good to see you again. We haven’t been keeping as much close touch as much as I’d like, but it’s great to be here.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, that means that I’m doing better with my tech support because when I contact you a lot, that means we’re not doing as well, so it’s probably better for you, right?

Ron Nichols: That works.

Allison Tyler Jones: So, you purchased the business of ProSelect, the software company. And just to give listeners that don’t know, ProSelect, what would you say is ProSelect? I won’t tell. You say. What is it? What’s ProSelect?

Ron Nichols: ProSelect is really, ultimately what it comes down to is a tool that allows you to be able to make money, and it allows you to make money whether you’re on the sales end of it or on the production end of it because of it’s efficiencies. But it really becomes the catalyst that everything ultimately points to ProSelect when you get into a true studio sales and production workflow.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, I love that description because that’s how I think of it. With ProSelect when I remember my experience with the software, is that the thing I really like about it is that you can use it for a lot of different things. So, in my mind, it is a visualization tool that helps your clients be able to visualize what artwork looks like in their home. And then it’s so much more than that, but that’s the main thing.

Allison Tyler Jones: But when I first started using it, I just needed a way to show my clients the images that I had captured for them, and I didn’t want to use Lightroom and I didn’t want to use online galleries. So, I was doing in-person sales, so I just dumped my images into a ProSelect catalog, and then I could run a slideshow for them and then we could pick, yes, maybe, no. But we did the little happy face, the sad face, and then just the middle face. So, we were doing yes, maybe, no.

Allison Tyler Jones: So, that’s how I started using it. And I loved that because I didn’t have to know everything else. I could just start with a very basic, and then it had all of these other bells and whistles that I didn’t use until later, and that was fine.

Ron Nichols: Yeah, the nice thing about ProSelect is you can take baby steps to be able to get into it. We have users that’ll take and download ProSelect, and then they’re using it the same day that afternoon. They can pop a set of images in there, go through, make their selections, do a simple slideshow, put images into a room.

Ron Nichols: But really what it comes down to is ProSelect makes it so that you don’t have to be a salesperson to sell. Surely, having some sales talents are going to help you, but what it does is, you mentioned it’s a visualization tool. It gives customers the opportunity to buy because you can take and you can drag in the image and put it onto one of the rooms that come right in ProSelect, and you can put it and you can show them the difference between a 16×20 and an 8×10 or a 16×20 and a 40×60. And all of a sudden, the customers get it. Because a lot of people, they look, they think that, oh, I’m going to get one of those big 11x14s. They think it’s big until you get in a situation where they can actually see what it is in relation to other subjects like a sofa and end tables and things like that. The ProSelect brings it together into a real-life situation so you can sell.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s awesome. And so what you’re talking about is that in the software itself is you have these rooms, so just stock photos of rooms that you can put things in that clients can see, like you say, in relation to furniture. And so my next phase of it after the slideshow phase was in 2013, I decided I am going… My clients, what was happening is they would come in, we would show them the slideshow, we would figure out what we wanted to order, but they would be like, “Well, I don’t know if that’s going to fit. I don’t know if that’s going to work on my wall. I need to go home and measure.” And so the sales just weren’t closing because they weren’t sure that it was going to work. And then I would show them, “Okay, well, here’s a stock photo. This would go above a sofa.” “Well, I don’t know if it’s going to work with my sofa.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And so that’s when I realized, oh, I can get their wall photos and put them in the software and scale the wall and then see their actual walls. That first year that I did that, that was 2013. That one change, so all we did is we just required, “Hey,” if you’re my client, Ron, “we just need to get your wall photos before we do your ordering appointment.” And we got those, and we weren’t even good at it. We didn’t even get them from everybody. We got them from most people.

Allison Tyler Jones: $100,000 increase in revenue that year alone from that one thing alone, just having those pictures of their walls, because there was no go home and measure. They would still say that. They would say, “Oh, I feel like I need to go home and blue tape.” And I’m like, “Okay, look right here, right here. You can see. It needs to be a 40×60. If it’s going to go in this place, it needs to be a 40×60. If you don’t want to buy a 40×60, then we just need to find another wall. But for this space, it has to be the size.” And so that’s what that software did, was just have their wall with my work and it just eliminated the possibility of error.

Ron Nichols: Absolutely. My background is, I drifted into the software business of it, but I started out as a photographer a long time ago, and I was doing in-person sales long before the term IPS was ever coined. That’s what I grew up doing. And we had various other technologies that we use to present images on the wall, and what happens is that as you take and you adopt these different technologies and you make one simple little change, it’s amazing what it can do. In your case, you say that, “I started using the customer rooms, and that increases $100,000.” And you think about it, how many photographers out there are not even grossing $100,000 a year? You were able to take and step that up.

Ron Nichols: And so I think that there’s two fails that can happen that can cause a sale to collapse. You get the client, they’re excited about the images is one. It’s the size, that they’re unsure of the size. And ProSelect doesn’t… ProSelect lets you show that in a real-life situation so you can do it. You can not only show it in the room, but then you can just simply click an icon and you can show it actual size so they can see the head size, they know exactly what it’s going to look like in that way.

Ron Nichols: And I think the other thing that’s a sale-killer is the ability to not have a price for the customer to be able to tell them what it’s going to cost. And boy, sometimes it’s really hard to go to be able to get the guts to be able to say what that cost is for that particular image or to be able to point to it on your price list, whatever works for you. But if you can’t give them a price or can’t nail down the size, you’re not going to have the sale. And we know that once they walk out the door, it’s going to be greatly diminished when or if they come back.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Okay, which brings me to then now the price list. So, let’s put a pin in this for a second because I want to go back in time. For those who maybe have only been photographers for 20 years, we don’t really have a concept of how it used to be done in the olden days. So, back in the days before digital, primarily men were running these very profitable, really big studios, and everything was done in-person sale. And it was all either proofs or they were coming in, clients were looking at things, they were being done by projection with these old slide projectors with all of that kind of stuff. And so that’s how it was done, but it was very hard. It was very expensive. It was a whole process to get those slides and those proofs, and very expensive to have them all printed.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so then on comes digital. Just to your point about technology, on comes digital, it’s like woohoo! It’s all free because it’s just all pixels, and we can put everything up on a gallery and they can just order them from home and then the whole industry creators. And so it’s like just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should. And so I feel like now with ProSelect, we’re clawing back all the best of the olden days. Those really profitable great portrait studios is the in-person sales and helping clients be able to visualize and be able to sit with an expert and be able to figure out what it is that they want to do with their home.

Allison Tyler Jones: But like you said, they need to be able to pick the images, they need to be able to see them on their wall to know that it’s the right size, and then you have to be able to not say, “Oh, well, you know what? Let me make up a proposal and I’ll call you and let you know how much it is five days from now.” You need to know right this second how much that’s going to be. And so that’s the third thing I did, is I then put all of my pricing and all of my products into the software so that then, when I’m looking at that 40×60 above that sofa, I click on it, go to the shopping cart, and it’s immediately put into the invoice and we know exactly how much it is right there. It’s just instantaneous so we don’t have to have any kind of delay, and then they can immediately go, “Woo, no, I can’t pay that. Let’s find a different place.” You know what I mean? And then we’re working on it together. It’s not like they’re being sandbagged later.

Ron Nichols: Exactly. I think that what happens is that all of us that have had any sales training over the years, you have to be able to take and close the sale, and closing the sale is difficult to be able to take and get the commitment. But ProSelect allows you to be able to take and work your way through the sale so that we always want to start out, or at least I always would, and I think you do too, Allison, is you always want to start with that primary wall portrait first, and then you’re going to put that out there, and then you get the commitment on that.

Ron Nichols: And then what’s going to happen is the commitment actually becomes a time when you click the shopping cart and that you just have to click that icon. It just simply adds that into your shopping cart, and then you just simply just move on. Then you’re going to start working with images for other parts of the home, other supplemental products, whatever they may be, and you work your way through it. And it allows you to be able to increment a sale into various segments. And the software guides you through the final commitment as you go, that click into the shopping cart, and the customer knows you’re doing that. And it just gives you a path to be able to move forward. It makes it so that you don’t have to be a salesperson because it gives you a path to do it and gives you the opportunity to be able to do it efficiently and to be able to do it quickly.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I love it. Well, and I don’t know if you have other portrait studios that are doing this, but one thing that we do where we’re using it now is we’re now requiring wall photos at consultation. So, when the clients come in for the consultation, we load up their wall photos into… So, we haven’t photographed anything yet. So, you and Carol coming in for a consultation. I’ve got your wall photos of your living room, your dining room, and your entry. I put those into a ProSelect catalog into the room views, and then I’m pulling my work of a family of an older couple with-

Ron Nichols: Older? What do you mean?

Allison Tyler Jones: Older, yes, mature. A mature couple with adult kids. So, I’m going to pull a family that looks demographically like yours with basically my styles, a white background, a gray background, whatever. So, this is before they come in and I’m placing images in those rooms already. So, they come in, we do our dog and pony show on our consultation, how we normally do it, and then I’ll say, “Okay, thank you for sending me the photos. This is what this would look like in your home. These are the sizes that we’re looking at and this is the investment that you’re looking at.”

Allison Tyler Jones: So, before I pick up a camera, they know that a 40×60 in their entry is going to be X number of dollars and that’s what it’s going to look like. So, they have a lot of time to get used to that. And they might go home and say, “You know what? Not this year, not right now.” But mostly they just go, “Oh, that’s great.” So, it’s like this transparency ahead of time. They can immediately visualize, and then they have it in their head when they go home and they’re walking by that entry wall or their dining room and they’re thinking, oh, that is going to look so amazing. And so the buy-in is way before we shoot using ProSelect.

Ron Nichols: Great. That’s a great method because I always felt it was really important to be able to take and pre-screen your clients. And so when I was in the studio, one of the key factors that I would always do is I would always sit down with them with a price list and be able to show them in our viewing room and be able to point to the 40×60 and the 30×40. “And this is this, and this is the price to be able to do it.” Because I don’t ever want to get into a situation, why do I want to take and invest in all the time and production it takes to be able to create the whole family portrait, have the mother or grandmother go through buying all the clothing for everybody that’s involved, and they get in there and then find out, whoa, this is completely out of our league?

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I thought this was going to be $500, not $5,000.

Ron Nichols: Exactly. And so again, it’s another way of pre-screening the clients for that. One of the things that we have in ProSelect that really helps make that easy is we have what’s called Send My Rooms. And Send My Rooms is where you can go into your ProSelect and you can initiate an invitation right within the software. There’s some pre-written ones in there, or you can completely create your own. And what it does is you can send a notification to your client and you tell them, “Hey, you’re going to get this email.” And in this email, it’s going to have a video. It’s going to link to a video in there, and it’s a video that shows them exactly how to take the photographs of the room, so it shows them how to put the piece of paper up on the wall, where to stand, get square to the wall. It’s a nicely produced video.

Ron Nichols: And then what it does is it actually turns their phone into an app without them downloading an app. So, they can take and they can just click to take a picture, and then it goes in. It’ll go in and it activates the camera on the system, and they can take and they take the picture. And once they take the picture, they can take and it shows them a little dial and they can spin and say living room or dining room or whatever it may be, upload. And then they can go take another one. And so they can upload a dozen different photographs in here. It comes right into our servers. You open up your ProSelect and all you have to do is go to that client job, tell it to load the images, and you can download those images. They come right into ProSelect, you scale them, and they’re ready to go. And so that can happen before you even photograph, or you can do it even-

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s awesome.

Ron Nichols: … after you’ve done it you know.

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. Full disclosure, I haven’t used Send My Rooms yet. The reason why I’m not being a good student, or trying to be a good student, is I just want people to know that when you’re the software developer, when you’ve created this, you live, breathe, eat it. You know every detail. You know every nuance of it. And so when you don’t, it’s just like with Photoshop or anything, sometimes you feel like, oh, I can’t even go down the road because there’s too many bells and whistles. But I just think every portrait photographer should use it.

Allison Tyler Jones: This is not an ad. You can confirm I’m getting nothing for this. This is not an ad. This is literally, I just am so passionate about it and believe in it. I could not do it. I could not do… I would get rid of Photoshop before I got rid of ProSelect. I could not do my job without ProSelect because it allows my clients to see, for us to have a common reference point of, “This is what we’re doing.” It allows them to visualize it.

Allison Tyler Jones: And even though I don’t use it perfectly, even like I just said, I’m not even using Send My Rooms, sometimes I even will call and FaceTime with people and they’re walking, I’m like, “Okay,” because I’ll be like, “I’m not going to have time to get the wall photos to you.” I’m like, “Call me right now on FaceTime.” And then they walk through and I am doing screenshots as they’re holding it up to their wall. There is always a way to do this. It’s not ideal. So, there’s so many levels of support that the software gives you, but even if you don’t use it all, you can baby step your way into it very easily.

Ron Nichols: Yeah, that’s exactly the way it is. You want to get it started so you can start embracing the situation, then all of a sudden you realize that, wait a second, this makes me money. And so that if you can take and if you can add, maybe you’ll add $100, maybe you’ll add $500, maybe you’ll add $5,000. It’s incredible, the stories. There was a photographer that we were working with one time and his first ProSelect sale that he did, I think it was like $42,000 or something.

Allison Tyler Jones: Amazing.

Ron Nichols: Yeah, it was just incredible. I even had to shake my head and go, whoa, I know this guy’s a square shooter.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, because-

Ron Nichols: The people that do this-

Allison Tyler Jones: I think that to your point about you don’t really have to be a good salesperson, I feel like the best salespeople are not that salesy, are not the ones that know all the “tricks.” The best “salespeople” are just transparent human beings that are like, “Hey, let me help you get what you want.” And I don’t want you… You’re going to have to pay a session fee. Just like you said, you’re going to buy the clothes, you’re going to drag your kids down here, we’re going to go through this whole dog and pony show, and then you’re going to buy something too small for the wall. It’s going to look like crap, and it still costs a lot of money. Let’s get it to be the right size. You know what I mean?

Ron Nichols: Yeah. What I always found over the years in the studio is that the people, the clients that were the happiest were the ones that bought exactly whatever they wanted that ended up getting the adequate size wall portrait. If all of a sudden they skimped on it or had to go home and their husband kabashed it without ever looking at any of the images on the one, we never had a good future relationship with them because it didn’t feel right to them. But the clients that went and that had the beautiful wall portraits, they had something that they’re truly proud of or that they bought the wedding albums that had all the images in them that they truly wanted, those people, we were like best friends. And I still have communication with so many of these past clients over the years. It does build a relationship when you’re doing that service of being able to relate to your client, be their friend, and do what’s right.

Ron Nichols: Most photographers are not their own customer. They’re not going to be able to sit there, and maybe a lot of these photographers couldn’t go out and spend $5,000, $10,000 or $20,000 on a set of images. And so what they do is because they can’t do it themselves, that holds them back. And so ProSelect gives you the ability to be able to take and overcome some of that.

Ron Nichols: What’s crazy about the whole thing is that ProSelect is a subscription-only software. One of the things that when, back in 2021, the lead programmer and myself, I was a consultant to Time Exposure before. We didn’t buy the company. We bought all the new ProSelect code is what we bought for the current version code, and we bought all the trademarks and started a new company with it. And so we’ve been able to take and redevelop everything from there.

Ron Nichols: And then one of the things, to become viable as a software business, it’s become pretty clear to the world the only way you can remain viable is on a subscription-based business. We can’t support versions from 15, 18 years ago and be able to move the company forward. And so we’ve got that, but I’m just amazed at the people that you can get a basic subscription of ProSelect for $29 or a month or pro version for $49 a month, and it’s like, boy, if that $49 isn’t doing tenfold for you, there’s a problem.

Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, yeah. Well, okay, hold on. Let me see. I have to do math. 50, yeah, so $600 a year. Give me a break.

Ron Nichols: Yeah. And you can even buy it down cheaper with buying an annual plan, so the cost comes down even less than that.

Allison Tyler Jones: And to your point, I do feel like we’re all just consumed with subscriptions right now. You have to constantly go through and look at your credit card bill and be like, what am I paying for? So, it’s like maybe get down to one email service provider. I think that’s something that you need to look at every year.

Allison Tyler Jones: But honestly, you will pry out of my cold dead hands, it’s going to be Photoshop and ProSelect. Those are the two. Even my CRM software, you’d have to pry that out of Ivan, my husband’s, cold dead hands. But I’m like, I’d even let the CRM go and I’d just use some database software for my clients if I had to. But ProSelect is that vital to my success.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay, so let’s talk about just a little bit when you have clients that come in for the sales appointment, how are you, I guess everybody does it different, but in your mind, how do you see that going beginning to end? Somebody comes in and sits down. What’s the presentation in your mind from beginning to end? I know how I do it, but what are your thoughts?

Ron Nichols: Okay, one of the ways that I always recommend and the way that I always did it was, of course, we want to create a welcoming environment. In my studio, we had a large room. It was equivalent to size of most people’s living room. We use digital projection. I know you use TV. So, a matter of what your personal preferences are. But of course, we want to create that environment, be able to, they can see actual printed images that are surrounding them.

Ron Nichols: So, the first thing we do is be able to have the client, tell them, “We just want to sit down, relax, and enjoy a slideshow.” And we show the images with music, and the music is all built right into ProSelect so they can watch the image. I tell them, “Don’t worry about picking out anything. Just simply enjoy the images at that point.” So, once we’ve gone through the slideshow, then from there, we explain to the client that I want to go through and actually have them to start now, start making selections and making their favorites out of there.

Ron Nichols: Now, one of the things you can do in ProSelect is you can tap the F key on any image and you can flag it as photographer’s favorite. So, you could even put your little logo or something on there that if you want. What that does is that allows you to be able to take an engage in the conversation. So, I want to go through all the images in there and I want the client to pick a yes, no, and maybe. The ultimate goal is to create two pools of images. I want to create a yes pool of images that are going to be for the primary purchases for wall portraits, gift portraits, those types of things. Then I want to have some secondary images that we can take to a flush out. Maybe it’s going to be an album, an image box, a composite panel, something like that. Maybe some other gifts that might go to grandparents or something like that. And then the nos are ones we’re never going to look at again.

Ron Nichols: So, I want to go through there and create those three pools of images, a yes, maybes, and nos. And then once I get through it, I’m going to go back into the yeses. I’m not going to compare anything the first time out. I don’t want to compare, and that’s me. But then I would go back, and then I would go into the yes group, and then I would take and compare the like images. And we would take out any images that are basically the same image but just different expressions, take them out of there and to be able to get down to the best of each one.

Ron Nichols: Then once I’ve got my set of yes images, I’m not going to worry about my maybe images or duplicates in there at this point. It’s irrelevant. They’re there if I need them. I usually would get the client up, have them stand up, and then I would take and I would just give them a quick walk around the presentation room or the studio. And I would show them, take them up to a canvas print, and let them rub their fingers on the canvas. “Go ahead and touch it.” And let them run their fingers across there. And I would show them what a metal print looks like and be able to take my finger and thunk it a little bit and let them hear the thunk of the metal, and then be able to show them a textured, more of a standard type finish, and to be able to understand what the products are. Show them an image box, show them an album.

Ron Nichols: From there, then we can sit down and then start focusing on working on that wall portrait. And it’s always important to sell that wall portrait first because if you don’t sell the… It’s very difficult to sell the wall portrait on the back end. You need to get that nailed down first. And if you sell in the process of being able to take and sell the wall portraits first, then the gift portraits, then any other type of supplementary type products, which would be like multi-image type things, the image boxes, albums, things. This is a place where the client can take and gather up all these other images that they haven’t purchased yet and to be able to have them. So, it makes it a much easier sale from my experience going through in that particular order.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. I love it. Okay, so I’m going to tell you how I do it.

Ron Nichols: No, I don’t want to hear that.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Because that’s how I did it. I used to do that. And then what I found in that, this is again from my clients, my personality, the way I work, so it’s different for everybody, is that people were getting really weighed down in that yes, no, maybe. So, one thing that I started doing is just… I am a ruthless editor. Ruthless. They really don’t see very many images anymore. I used to for a family session, might show 40 to 50 images. Now, I might show, depending on what we talked about in the consultation because they have to pre-commit for an album or I won’t shoot for it, so if they’ve pre-committed for an album, they might see 30. 20 to 30 images.

Allison Tyler Jones: So, I do the same as you. Come in, sit down, just enjoy. Don’t worry about picking. Run the slideshow, and then I say, “I’m so excited. Do you want to see your walls?” So, I show them. So, we’re not, yes, no, maybe. We just literally go straight to the wall. If it’s in the dining room, if it’s in the entry, if it’s in the… Because we tell them to send us multiple walls and we let them know, “We’re not decorating your whole house at a one photo shoot, but just give us options so that you don’t have to call your babysitter and have her send images in while we’re here.” So then they can say, “Oh yeah, no, for sure, it’s got to be the entry. That’s the size. We love it.” Great.

Allison Tyler Jones: If they’ve committed to an album, I have the album laid out. “Here’s the album.” Love it. Great. So, usually we’re 10 minutes in and we’re like, “Great, done.” So then they go, “Well, do we know that we have the right images?” And I’m like, “Sure, let’s go through and look and make sure that we got everything.” But I’ve already laid out the album. I’ve already laid out their walls. And so there’s very little, yes, no, maybe. We almost never do that. And then at the very end, I say, “Do we want to do holiday cards or gift prints?” And then that’s the very end.

Allison Tyler Jones: But that’s how I do it. And so it’s taken our… We usually set a time set aside, 90 minutes to two hours for a view-and-order session. It’s usually 20 minutes of that time is image selection and the rest of it is talking about kids and parenting and politics or whatever. So, it really has cut our time significantly because they decide what they’re getting in the consultation, and so we’re just fulfilling the order at that back end. But it’s letting them see, “This is why you sent us those wall photos. This is what they look like on the wall.” And so they might go back and forth like, “Oh, do I like it vertical? Do I like it horizontal?”

Allison Tyler Jones: But it’s just cut it down so much. And then I am telling them what I think it should be. “I think this should be canvas. I think this should be matted. This is what I think you should do.” And so then they’re like, “Oh, okay.” Because I’m like, “There’s windows across from your entry, so it’s going to be glare. Let’s make this one canvas. These other ones I think should be matted, and I think they should have glass on them.” And then they 99% of the time go, “Okay.” And then 1%, you’re going to get somebody that’s like, “Oh, I like white frames better.” Great. But really, I am amazed at how people don’t… That’s our job, is to come up with the idea of what we think it should be.

Ron Nichols: Absolutely. I think you need to position yourself as a professional, and that starts in that pre-session consultation when you first meet with them. And so you have to make recommendations. You’re talking about how you edit your images down quite a bit. That was always a given for me. See, I was raised in the film days.

Allison Tyler Jones: Film wars, yeah.

Ron Nichols: The family portrait was that we would take 12, maybe 24 exposures is what we would do on a family session, and that’s all we’d work with. And even in the digital days, that’s all it went to. I went to Mongolia last year on a trip with a buddy of mine, and there was a photographic tour, and I got back and I had these people that were on the trip that were taking and they’re worrying about hard drive space and how they were going to store all these images. And I’m going, how can this be? And these people were shooting 2,500, 3,000, 4,000 images a day. I got home and I looked and I had 2,500 images and video combined for almost two weeks of shooting over there. I was more conservative in my shooting.

Allison Tyler Jones: But that’s normal for you.

Ron Nichols: For me, yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, and again, back to the olden days when it cost you… When every time you click that shutter, how much was it? If you had to have a proof and you had to have the projection thing, how much was it?

Ron Nichols: You’d be looking at about $2 an image by the time you had the film and the proof and everything, and then you had the labor to be able to deal with it, sort it, and put it together. It wasn’t like-

Allison Tyler Jones: Totally.

Ron Nichols: … lopping and dragging.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Yeah, so you’re talking about $5 to $10 every time you click that shutter, so you guys were way more judicious about how you shot, but no longer. And I am the worst offender on that because I do so much movement, so I’m like photojournalist practically, and I’m just… So, I’ve got 600 images I’m shooting in a family session, but they’re only seeing 20 to 30.

Ron Nichols: Right. For anybody, if you ever went into a session with 600 images to try and have a client edit through those, that is just an epic fail. There’s no way it’s going to happen.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And I would make the case that same with 100, same with 50. Our Favorites album is about 17 images, and that’s our bestseller. That’s what most people want. And that’s enough images to capture a whole session, give you a few breakouts and different things like that, and just to have that already laid out so that they see exactly what it looks like.

Allison Tyler Jones: Again, so that’s the other part of ProSelect. I have all of my holiday card templates, I have my album templates, so I have everything that all I have to do is just drag and drop there. Now, they’re not perfectly sexy and perfectly produced at this point. They’re just mockups, but it just makes it so easy for my clients to visualize that’s the front of the card, that’s the back of the holiday card, and then this is the order that the album will be done in. And it’s just like… And then here’s how much it is, boom, shopping cart done.

Ron Nichols: Yeah. I love what you’ve done with your shopping carts, the way… It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it, but I know how you utilize it at the mockup level, which I think is genius. It works out really, really well.

Allison Tyler Jones: And the thing that I love about it too is that, so let’s just say you and Carol, you’ve decided that you want to do an album and you’re going to do a wall portrait and then maybe some smaller wall portraits, so as I prepare that catalog, that ProSelect catalog, I have your images in there. I have the slideshow ready to go. I have the walls laid up, but I also have pre-populated the invoice as I think it should be. So, it’s already in there. So then all I’m doing when they’re saying, “Well, no, let’s make that a little bit smaller,” I’m just changing it. I’m editing the invoice rather than having to create it. It already has the session credit.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s just so fast. And so people don’t get worn out. They don’t get tired. They aren’t sitting there going, “Oh, okay, now I’ve just spent an hour going, ‘Yes, no, maybe,’ and now I got to pick out frames?” People do not have time for that or bandwidth. So, it’s like, no, I’ve already picked it. Here’s what it is. And then if they are like, “Oh, I hate that expression on his face because that’s what he does when he’s a brat.” Okay, well then let’s go in and pick those two. But the rest of them is just handled.

Ron Nichols: Sure. Efficiency is so important because people do get tired out, they get overwhelmed. And the other thing is that I think it’s so important that you have to be able to take and stay in control.

Ron Nichols: One of the things that I like to do is to be able to take, and when I’m working with the clients, I like to be positioned so I can actually look at the clients as opposed to looking at the screen. So, that allows me to be able to take and read their expressions. And so if I’m going to put up an image up there and if I’m doing something that’s in a comparison or as I start the whole process, the first thing I’m going to ask them is, “Is it okay if I give you my opinions too?” And that way, you’ve established the permission out there. That’s establishing you as a professional.

Ron Nichols: So, if I can take and if I see some hesitation on Dad or something that allows me to be able to jump in, or if I’ve got, there’s two images that maybe we’re comparing and I really genuinely think one is better, I’m going to jump on that and say exactly what that is because they already gave me permission to do that. I’m a professional, and that’s a key that you have to establish it. And it’s difficult to be able to get the confidence to be able to do that, but once you do it, you’re going to go, wow, this is pretty amazing. And the clients ultimately appreciate it. They come to you because you’re a professional and appreciate your guidance. That’s why they’re sitting there with you.

Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. They love it. Well, because you are the one that has the expertise. Let me ask you this, because you’re a guy, and what do you feel… What advice do you have for women photographers? One of the things that I hear again and again is, “The dads are such jerks. How do you get the dads on board?” Because the moms all love it. This is the question I’m getting. I don’t necessarily agree with this, but the moms love it and then the dads shut it down. So, what is your experience with that? What are your thoughts on that? What advice do you have?

Ron Nichols: Well, I think part of that comes down to the aspect of being able to engage the father back at the most root level of the whole problem. You may not get him in at the consultation, even though you want him there, but there’s a lot of times that’s probably the hardest get, I would guess, Allison-

Allison Tyler Jones: For sure, yeah.

Ron Nichols: … is to get him there. But where you want to do it is to be able to take and engage him at the point when you’re doing the photography, be able to create those emotional bonds. And that if you start creating that emotion between the father and his children, the father and his daughter or his sons, and be able to take and capture that at an emotional level as opposed to just merely having an image, that’s where you’re going to get buy-in much, much quicker. And if you can take and be able to relate to that client when you’re shooting and that dad, and be able to reinforce the ability, too, that it’s okay to have emotions too. You need to connect. I’m a very emotional person. You can hear that in my voice right now about-

Allison Tyler Jones: Totally.

Ron Nichols: … having a relationship with my daughter.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, totally.

Ron Nichols: And it’s like for me to have images with her-

Allison Tyler Jones: Is a treasure, yeah.

Ron Nichols: Price is not an issue.

Allison Tyler Jones: No. Well, and I think I love that you’re saying that because if you have in your mind that the dad’s going to be a jerk, the dad’s going to be a jerk. I don’t say that some dads aren’t jerks. Sometimes they are. But even the ones that come in, most people just come in, and how I try to deal with the dads is I try to just let them know that I see where they’re at. I’ll say, “Have you had your little advent chain that you’ve been pulling off the links every day until today?” Or, “How many Amazon boxes have been at your door for clothes?” Or, “Are we up to the $20,000 mark on wardrobe yet?” And then they start to laugh, like, “Oh my gosh.” Or, “Has she been a complete neurotic freak about the clothes?” So, they are like, “Oh, okay, you get what I’ve been through and you know that I don’t want to be here.” But most guys, if they’re willing to show up and be there, they do love their families.

Ron Nichols: Sure.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so like you said, making it an experience where they can really connect with their families. But I’m telling you, they usually walk in the door and they are hating each other. The marriage is on rocky ground. They hate their kids because everybody, it’s like to get them dressed, get them there, it’s fraught. And so I think you have to defuse that. But in the salesroom, so we’re now looking at stuff and these guys are sitting there, and information may or may not have been shared with them by their wives.

Ron Nichols: Oh, yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right? Okay. So, I think as a man, man to man, I could see there’s an advantage in that because some guy is not going to give you as much pushback as they might a woman. Do you think that’s fair?

Ron Nichols: I think that’s fair, yeah. Women have a different way that if you’re pushy and aggressive, then you’re easily… The default thing is, oh, she’s a-

Allison Tyler Jones: She’s a bitch, yeah.

Ron Nichols: Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, totally. For sure. But you don’t want to be obsequious, so what is your advice for that? If it’s your daughter, if I’m your daughter and I am the photographer and I’m like, “Look, these guys are coming in, they’re pushing me around,” what advice do you have for women in that salesroom if the guy’s being a jerk?

Ron Nichols: Well, first of all, I just think that we need to, again, capture back on the emotion. Think about that when you come in, when you walk in that room, “What’s it going to mean to you to be able to see that photograph of you and your daughter or you and your whole family that I know how much family means to you?” I’m looking that dad right in the eye, and I’m saying that and I’m also nodding my head. You can’t see me nothing my head, but I’m nodding my head as I’m saying it because people will tend to mimic that, and they understand. And your daughter is only going to be this age this one time, and we’ve captured this one moment in time. You’ll never have that back again. She will never have those same curls in her hair the way that she does now, and your son will probably grow out of that goofy look. The next time you get that family portrait, his voice will have changed and there’ll be different dynamics in the family at that point, and so it’s so important to be able to take and capture this.

Ron Nichols: And I always joke with him too, I say, “This is also where I get even with doctors and lawyers when it comes to price on the billing.” I think that you have to sometimes throw out a little bit of levity into the whole situation. It’s important to acknowledge that it’s pricey, that it’s expensive, but you’re dealing with a luxury product, and this is something that you don’t do every year. When’s the next time you’re going to do a family portrait? Is it five years? Is it three years? And the one year…

Allison Tyler Jones: No, Ron, they’re coming back next year. Come on, don’t ruin my thing.

Ron Nichols: Okay, you’re doing better. You’re doing better. But I think to be able to say-

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, but they’re never going to be this age again. Yeah, to your point, right?

Ron Nichols: Sure. But the thing is you need to acknowledge that it’s a lot of money. You can’t back down from that. You have to say, “I understand it’s a lot of money.” It’s yes, but this is-

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s awesome.

Ron Nichols: This is the situation here.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, I know. I love that. And I agree with you. I think just because somebody says something, I just wanted your take on that because you’re a guy, but I say a lot is that just because somebody says something out of their mouth doesn’t mean it requires you to do something. So, if a guy, men are much more willing to be very direct. Women, we’ve been socialized to go around the corner, not be direct and be passive-aggressive or act nice, but we’ll still burn you down.

Ron Nichols: You didn’t get that memo, did you?

Allison Tyler Jones: No, I never got that memo, but I’ve definitely dealt with a lot of women like this, where they’ll act nice and then they’ll burn you down on the back end, whereas I much prefer to deal with a guy or a direct woman because they will just say what they mean. So, to me, when a guy says something in a sales appointment, it’s just information. So, if they’re like, “What the heck? You didn’t tell me that was going to be $5,000 or whatever,” then there’s nothing for me to do there. I don’t need to justify it. I don’t need to anything. If it’s like, “Well, I had no idea it was going to be that much.” I’m like, “Yeah, it’s awesome.”

Ron Nichols: Yeah, you have to be able to-

Allison Tyler Jones: Just acknowledge.

Ron Nichols: You can’t dodge it. You have to be able to take, and if they’re not talking at all, if they’re sitting there and just nodding their head or being quiet, that’s a problem.

Allison Tyler Jones: Totally.

Ron Nichols: That doesn’t mean that they’re being submissive. That means that they’re probably, that they could be pissed off.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right, or they’re going to go home and call you later and say, “We want to cut the order in half or cancel it,” or whatever.

Ron Nichols: Exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: So, them talking about it then, to me, is better because then you can get it out. And so if somebody says, “Oh my gosh, this is way more than I thought,” then I’m like, “Okay, what do we need to do? How do we get the price…” He’s like, “Well, how do we get the price down?” “Well, smaller things are less things.” Because the price is the price, so there’s no… I’m not discounting it. So, it’s like, “If you want to do less things, the price will be less, or you want to do smaller things, then the price will be less. Those are the two ways. What do you want to do?” “Well, no, that’s the size it needs to be.” Okay, then that’s what the price is. Maybe we do less things. Even though sometimes in my heart and in my soul, I’m feeling like, oh my gosh, this is tense, I’m still feeling the adrenaline, but not letting that come out. Because again, it’s not personal.

Allison Tyler Jones: And I feel like one thing that I’ve said so many times, and I had an epiphany one day, I realized with a client, it had been a particularly fraught sales appointment, I realized they would not be sitting here being so wound up if they didn’t love the images. Do you know what I mean? If you walk in somewhere and they’re like, “That car is half a million dollars,” and it’s the ugliest car you’ve ever seen and you never wanted to drive it anyway. You’re like, “Well, how nice for you. See you later.” But if you walk in and you’ve driven that car and it fills every need, it does your nails, it massages your back, it does your lawn, you want it, you have it, and then they tell you it’s $500,000. You’re trying to think, how can I get a second on my house? But you’re still pissed that it’s that much money, so you’re yapping about it, but it’s because you want it. So, if they’re talking to you, they want it. They’re just trying to-

Ron Nichols: Exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: … figure out how to get it. So, just help them get it. And that’s what ProSelect does. Bigger, smaller, another wall, put it in an album, put it in a portfolio. There’s always a way to make it work.

Ron Nichols: Sometimes when you get that dreaded call that maybe that you could do the smaller or less of or something like this, the call that when the phone rings that next morning or something, you’re going, oh my gosh, they’re going to do this. But sometimes it’s Mom’s had a chance to work Dad over and say, “We need to be able to take… We’re going back to what was originally suggested.” And that can happen just as easily too.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. Well, and I have found actually to be more true is that the women, I’ve had women call and say, “Oh, my husband said they don’t want to.” It’s not the husbands. The husbands actually, when they come, they’re usually the ones that are upsizing things and doing more things. It’s like you get a wife that will blame it on the husband, but it’s because she is being cheap or whatever.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love my job so much because I think it’s such a study in human behavior and how people will try to get what they want in different ways and how they work in relationships, so I just love it. But I love ProSelect because it allows me, it just gives me the tool to be able to help the client see this is what it’s going to look like in your house, and this is how much it is. And then instantly, on the fly in that moment, we can make adjustments to it super fast. “Okay, how about if it’s just what’s the next size down?” Click. That’s the next size down. “Okay, what’s the next size down from that?” Click. “Yeah, no, that looks stupid.”

Allison Tyler Jones: You know what I mean? And so they can immediately see right there. So, it doesn’t take, “Let me go into Photoshop and size it again for you and make it and send you a mockup.” It’s just immediate. So, thank you for creating and making the best software ever and for helping me to build a sustainable, profitable business because I couldn’t have done it without your software.

Ron Nichols: Thanks. I love what I do and what our team does. And we’re just doing… We are moving the company so forward with the new versions and whole new generation of ProSelect. It’s really exciting what can be done. And it’s much more efficient on the new version, the 2025 version. It’s really exciting what we’ve been able to do.

Allison Tyler Jones: It looks great. The user interface looks so good, and I’m excited to dig in and start using it. So, before we go, what advice would you have for photographers who… What would you say… Because you were in the business for years. Now, you’re adjacent to the business. What do you see as the biggest mistakes maybe that people are making in the business right now that you think would help, if they fixed, would help them be better? And then where do you think we’re headed?

Ron Nichols: Well, I think where I see some of the biggest fails is where people are trying to compete down into the lower end. The photographers that are consistently the most successful photographers that I see out there are the ones that are dealing with the higher-end products. Because what that does is it allows you not only be able to separate your images at a quality level, but you’re also separating them at a price level.

Ron Nichols: And so what happens is it allows people to be able to realize maybe there is a difference, and you have to show them that there is a difference. When you’re trying to compete with mini sessions for $200 and a dozen digital images, you’ve got 50 people. You look at your community Facebook page when everybody says, “I’m looking, I want a session with the pumpkins,” whatever. And you’re going to have 50 people that are going to respond. You need to stay away from that one and concentrate on the people that are going to be able to take and that are going to appreciate what you do, and that you’re designing beautiful wall art for them, that that’s what it comes down to.

Ron Nichols: So, I think working in that higher end is essential. It’s a little tough to get there, but it’s… Actually, I take that back. It’s much easier to start at a higher end than start at a lower end and move yourself up there because you ultimately have to purge yourself of all that history and probably most of those clients, because they’re not the people that’ll be out there.

Ron Nichols: I also think it’s important to be able to take and work with people that are successful out there. I see people doing seminars and things all the time. They’re one hit wonders that have been in the business for three or four years, and all of a sudden they’re offering all these classes. And it’s like if you’re three or four years into the business and successful in photography, you should be making the money in photography, because if you truly are successful, it can provide you a very good living. And that’s where it’s going to be.

Ron Nichols: I’ve spoken all over the world, but the money to be able to take and do that end of it is nothing like what you can make in photography when you’re doing it. So, surround yourself with people who are successful, work with consultants and things like yourself, Allison, that can take and help push you to be able to the next level. And you have to have an open mind. You have to have the open mind to be able to accept new ideas. You have to have the confidence to be able to talk to people, to confront Mom and look Dad in the eye and be able to say, “This is really what it should be.” And be able to say, “This is going to be $8,000,” or $12,000 or whatever it is. And if you’re not willing to do that, you probably shouldn’t be in the business. You’re not going to be successful with it.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that’s true. Well, and also just I think it’s not a trick. ProSelect is not a trick. Sales, I don’t like the idea of, “Oh, what’s your closing trick?” It is literally pouring your soul into a client, really seeing them, like you said. I love that you got emotional there for a minute. I’ve seen men all day long cry in my office when they look and see their family and see their wife and how their wife looks at them and see their kids and this family that they’ve created. I know to my soul they could not spend money on anything better than wall art for their home of their family.

Allison Tyler Jones: A couch that’s going to be… And I love stuff for my house. My sister’s an interior designer. I have a great house. I want to spend on my house, but those portraits, I don’t think there’s anything… I am convinced that the value is there. So, if you aren’t convinced of that, then probably you should be in another business. But that’s why I love… If you are going to go to the high end, you can’t go to the high end without helping clients visualize. It’s like, I’m not going to spend $100,000 to landscape my front yard. I didn’t, but you wouldn’t. You couldn’t do that if somebody didn’t show you a mockup of what it was going to look like.

Allison Tyler Jones: So, when you’re charging those higher dollars, people have to see, what is it that I’m getting? When you’re charging $200 and they’re just going to send you a link for a gallery, you don’t need to… That doesn’t require any pre-visualization. They don’t care because there’s no skin in the game. The more skin they have in the game, the more money that they’re spending, the more they have to be able to touch, feel, see, and visualize. And that’s what I think ProSelect is brilliant at doing.

Ron Nichols: Well, thanks. I always loved it when the customers that if Mom or Grandma had to go out and buy all new clothes for everybody, people say, “Oh, I don’t want them to do that. I don’t want them spending the money on that end of it.” No, I want to pour in a ton of money into that. I want it to be a lot of work. I want it to go through. I want this mom to be able to take ownership of this whole project and be proud-

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, it’s a collaboration.

Ron Nichols: … of what we created together.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love it.

Ron Nichols: I think that when it comes down to when you get into things like the software can easily get overwhelming and it’s hard to change, and with the new generation of ProSelect, we force you into a path a little bit of being able to take and setting up your prices and getting things in there because what happens is that if you take the time to be able to take and learn the software… And we have lots of tools for you to learn from. We’ve created an all new online help system, and then plus when you download a trial, you can sign up for a free session with a mentor to help.

Allison Tyler Jones: Awesome.

Ron Nichols: But you want to be able to take and invest the time and set it up and be able to take and use it. Not everything, but if you can take and you get a few things in place, it’s important to be able to get the ability to be able to take, you get the images in there, be able to show them in the rooms, and have your product set up so that you can take and know exactly what you’re offering and to be able to do it and what it’s going to cost.

Ron Nichols: One of the new things that we’ve got in this version is that you can take and you can pull everything into a room, build up if you’ve got multiple elements into a room with the frames and everything, and you can look on your user screen. Your client doesn’t see this on their extended screen, but you can see exactly what the cost is for everything that you’ve got in that room right now. And in literally two clicks, it’s ordered. You’re pre-ordering. But before-

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s awesome.

Ron Nichols: … it took a lot more ordering to be able to do those things. But because you can do it and you know exactly what it is, the information is right there to be able to communicate with your client, and all it takes is I’m simply just looking down at the corner of my screen, and then I can still get that eye contact back to the client and say, “This particular selection that we’re looking at is $4,335.”

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s amazing. That’s so great. I love that. So, what we’ll do is in the show notes, we will link to where they can access your website, the tutorials, that sort of thing. And I love that they have that mentor, that they can have that free mentoring thing, because I think take advantage of that. I think that’s such a good-

Ron Nichols: Oh, it’s great.

Allison Tyler Jones: … thing to have.

Ron Nichols: Right. It’s prostudiosoftware.com is where they go to go out and look at ProSelect. And we’ve got great support. We’ve got great resources. We’ve greatly expanded the team.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, you’ve got a great Facebook group too.

Ron Nichols: Yeah, we do that. That helps a whole lot. But we just put on a new person to be able to take and handle videos. I used to do all the videos, and so I don’t do that many of them anymore. I oversee them, but I don’t do it. What we do is we brought more people in. We have a person that deals with the online manual. And it used to be that I was the end all, be all, that I knew everything about ProSelect.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. I’m glad that you’re getting help with that because that was a lot.

Ron Nichols: Yeah, and so I think we’re just doing great things. And we’re very forward-thinking. Ultimately, it comes down to making photographers successful because my product does absolutely no good if it doesn’t help you build a better business and be more successful in what you’re trying to do.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yep. I love it. Well, you and I are in the same business. We want, I think, lift this industry up and build. My goal is that when photographers have conferences, instead of being in a Holiday Inn Express on the outskirts of town, that we’re going to be at the Four Seasons in Cabo or some other like location. That’s my goal. I want to be hanging out where the orthodontists and the attorneys are hanging out, not where photographers are hanging out now. We’ll work on that together.

Ron Nichols: Well, we’ve definitely stayed in a whole lot of nice places with us and our photography friends out there.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s true. Well, I appreciate you so much, friend. I thank you so much for taking the time to help our industry be better.

Ron Nichols: Thanks so much, Allison. It’s great to be here.

Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at @do.the.rework.