Transcript: Clients for Life

Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She will challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do the rework.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, it’s been a hot minute since MFT has been in the podcast studio at the ReWork, and here she is.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes, here I am. I’m so happy. I was beginning to feel a little left out. I was like, “I haven’t talked to this woman in forever.”

Allison Tyler Jones: You have been at a lot of Dave Matthews concerts and and you are super busy.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I am a traveler. Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. As my grandson said, when I wanted a hug the other day, he’s like, “Grandma, I’m super busy.” So you have been super busy…

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I am super busy. I can feel that.

Allison Tyler Jones: …with all the things. Well, thank you for being here today, and I want to talk about something that I think you and Jamie are genius at and that I think our listeners really need to hear about, and that is client retention, like client loyalty, bringing them back year after year after year. So thoughts, feelings, and emotions about that topic.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, yeah, let’s do it. Well, so we’ve been in business… This is our 30th year. So-

Allison Tyler Jones: 3-0.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: 3-0.

Allison Tyler Jones: This is our 2-0.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: 3-0, that’s it. 3-0. So client retention is gold. That is… Without it, if we didn’t have our return or our repeat clients, and I don’t like to even call them return clients or repeat clients or existing, they’re clients. They’re just clients. But without them, I do know that it would be so much harder for us to keep people coming in, get on the calendar, blah, blah, blah. It just wouldn’t, I mean because-

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, you have to get all new clients every single year.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: It makes me sick to my stomach.

Allison Tyler Jones: Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the hill.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes. Because it’s hard, right? There’s so much noise. There’s so much busy, there’s so much everything out there that we know it’s harder and harder and harder to get someone’s attention. So because I have such a great foundation of clients, I’m very proud of that, by the way. And yes, 30 years. I’m not a spring chicken here, but I just was on the phone the other day with one of our great clients and we just photographed her daughter’s wedding. We’ve been photographing Anna since she was born, so her mom was like, “The first thing we did was to make sure you and Jamie were available. We can’t imagine having any life event that you all are not a part of.” And I know this because we have… Anna’s not the first bride like that, but I know this. But it just filled my heart with so much joy, and to be very transparent, because this has been a little bit of a hard year for me.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: It’s been a hard year for me, just for a lot of reasons with just the world. And I think that whatever’s going on, things have been a little bit slower for us than normal. This has just not been one of our banner years, which is okay because believe it or not, in the 30 years we’ve been in business, we’ve experienced some down years. And as contrary to popular belief, business goes up and then it kind of levels and goes down and it goes back up. So I’m not freaking out over it, but it’s those kind of people that remind me, “Okay, I’m on the right track. I’m not a loser. I’m not a failure that I didn’t hit my goals last month or last quarter or whatever. We’re okay.” And it’s those people, it’s that group of people. It’s those clients. Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and to me, that just feels like… I feel like with my existing clients or we call them like the ATJ family is, that is my foundation. It literally feels like money in the bank to me. Not that you take it for granted, but it’s just good relationships, a good marriage, a good friendship. You can’t even quantify what worth that is in your life. Think about a favorite relationship that you have when the crap hits the fan, I can call this person or my spouse or whoever. There’s just no amount of money, no value that can be placed on that that’s high enough. And I feel like that that’s no different with our repeat clients, the people that come back again and again, and to have somebody say something like that to you. I can’t imagine an event in our life without you being a part of it. That really says a lot about… It’s much more than Jamie’s super talented at photography or that you’re super talented at photography.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct. Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: And that your lighting’s amazing.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: No, and it is mean. We do… We’re pretty solid photographers and we do all the things, but it is, and you don’t even have to be that great of a photographer, quite frankly, but when you bring people into your space, your business, and you make them feel like family, which is exactly… You nailed it. That’s exactly what we do. Every client, I hope they feel like family. That’s what I want to the point where it goes both ways. Not only do we reach out to them when maybe we have a model call or we’re whatever artwork our project, but they reach out to us.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I mean, I can’t tell you how many calls we’ll get around the holidays. “Hey, Johnny’s interested in photography. What cameras should we buy? Or we’re working on a project or we’re doing a fundraiser or…” We’re on the top of their list because it’s a back and forth. It’s a win-win. We’re not just take, take, taking, we’re giving, not just… We create great portraits and we freeze the moment. We give them the memories, great. That’s our job. That’s our job. That’s what we’re supposed to do. But the amount of people that call us asking us for favors or questions or direction or whatever, that’s when I know that that’s more than just a client.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, and that gives you the difference between client satisfaction and client retention. Client satisfaction is just like charging you’re you X number of dollars for this thing and you did it. And they’re like, “Okay, I asked them for family pictures and they took family pictures.” But it’s that extra, you know when they’re calling you. I’ve had clients call me, “Do you know somebody that makes bumper pads, custom bumper pads for cribs?” And I’m like, “I’m a photographer.” And I actually did.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, I know.

Allison Tyler Jones: But it’s so hard to find good help these days as far as services. It’s so hard to get somebody that has light behind their eyes and will actually show up when they say they’re going to show up, do what they say they’re going to do, and then to put a cherry on top of it. And I need to call her for everything because clearly she knows what she’s doing.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: No, exactly. I mean, I get clients a lot who will say, “Where did you get those shoes? Or where did you get your haircut? Where…” Or whatever. And I love that. And client satisfaction is the bare minimum. And at least in our business, it’s the bare minimum. And I don’t care if you add a thank you note to it, which of course we do, or you do beautiful branded tissue and ribbon and unicorns and rainbows or gifts and all this. That’s just the bare minimum. That’s my job. The retention and holding onto them, really holding onto them and knowing that they’re there and I can count on them and they can count on me. That’s just beyond. That’s just beyond. And you don’t have to be in… By the way, we come from this space of 20 years or these decades long. You don’t have to be, it starts with day one.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: It can start with day one. So if you’re just starting out, if you start with the mentality of I’m going to make every client feel like family, I’m not just delivering pictures. I’m delivering heirloom artwork that’s not readily available in the marketplace. And if for no other reason, it’s because no one’s going to capture it the way my heart, my eyes, my soul captures it. And when you go to it with that space, and if you keep the experience amazing and you anticipate what they need before they even ask, and you treat every single session, whether it’s a mini session, which I don’t do or recommend, but many session to do a wedding or whatever it is you’re doing, you treat everything with the most enthusiasm, you’re going to retain clients from day one. Day one.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So I’m glad you brought that up because that I wanted to go there. So very often I’ll be asked like, “Well, how do you get people to come back?” And I really do feel like most photographers give a pretty amazing experience and are really… Most people that listen to this podcast, I mean, are people that a lot of us know who are excellent photographers and they are giving excellent service and they are working their nubs to the bone for their clients. But one thing that I feel like sometimes is missing is the expectation that they will return. It’s almost like they kill themselves and do the razzle dazzle on this one shoot, and they don’t have that sense that they’re going to return. Does that make sense?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: It makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense.

Allison Tyler Jones: You see that same thing?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, I do see that. And so when I came into this business 29 years ago, Jamie had been in business almost one full year when I started working together. And one of the things that I was adamant about is we approach everything with that first portrait of that first child if and when possible. And most people I remember back then, because we’re going back to film, we’re going back along and a lot of the more established photographers thought I was insane. They’re like, “No, you go for the family. That’s the biggest sale.” And it is, and I grant you that.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: But what I knew, what I was just smart enough to know is if you photograph your first child, you’re not going to not photograph the next one or the next one or what have you. And most people in our… Three children is the average in at least my area. So because I’m constantly talking to people about that, about the first kiddo, and then we have this whole map and we actually have our heirloom map. So whatever stage you come into our studio, I’m not just talking to you about designing this session. I’m already planting the seeds and talking about the next session.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I’m in the middle of this one talking about two and a half years, three years when this one’s the same age or when the first one’s going to high school or whatever it is. I’m talking about those next sessions. And I think that we get so caught up in the now when we’re with our clients, which is important, and I absolutely understand that, but I have trained myself to just know that I need to be talking about the next time, because don’t you find this in any… If you really mesh with a really great business person, salesperson, whatever it is, if they’re really good, they’re selling you right now, but they’re talking about the next time you guys are going to work together. And you’re like, “Yeah.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And you want to know how many times have you had a new client love the experience? And then they say, “Okay, so the next time…” And you’re like, “Wait a minute.” Especially when you’re new, you’re like, “Wait, we haven’t even finished this one yet.” So that’s how you’re onto something because they want to know, especially with what we do, they’ve got this newborn or toddler and they’re like, “Okay, so this perfect… I’ve made this amazing perfect child. Where do we go from here if we don’t have an answer for that?” And I’ve seen, and I think what has caused this confusion or this not expectation is there’s such trends in our industry and there’s that trend of that woman photographing women.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Okay, yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Do you know what I mean? Kind of that model of like, “Okay, let’s do this hair and makeup and wardrobe and it’s six hour shoot,” and then it’s the reveal wall, and then it’s all of that, which is so cool and great, love it, but it wears them out, they’re so tired. And then that’s kind of a once in a lifetime experience. But these photographers have put so much into that and so they think and then also it’s true of wedding photographers coming out. They don’t want to do weddings anymore. They’re going to transition into family.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so they’re used to doing 12 to 15 hours of work for X number of dollars. And they don’t realize no, family, you don’t have to put that much… Am I even making myself… You’re so used to overworking for a certain amount of money, whereas you realize actually it doesn’t have to be like that.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct. Absolutely correct. And I’ll be the first one to tell you. I mean, if you come in at some weird awkward stage, I’m not going to try to sell you the moon and the stars because I’m going to start talking… I always use, and this is Phil Jones, I mean, I love all of his books. Obviously I know, hopefully, I know you’ve read, but you know exactly what to say. I always say, and I come from that place of social proof and that place of, I’ve been there, I’ve done that, right? I’ve raised two. I’ve made two of the perfect humans. I’ve raised them, kept them out of prison. They have lives.

Allison Tyler Jones: So far.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, so far, high five to me and my husband, my gosh, my husband. But I’ve been there and I’ll say, “If it were me at this point, I would do this,” especially if you’ve got a newborn. And because we do so much environmental portraiture, we get a lot of calls and we’re like, “Oh, I have a newborn and a two-year-old and a five-year-old, and I want to be outside.” And I’m like, “Mother of pearl.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And two dogs. Don’t forget the cat.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Just knock me over the head. And then I’ll say, “You know what? If it were me with a newborn, let’s do a studio session, maybe a black and white relationship session. And this is why. Newborns outside, you might as well just be holding a baked potato.” I don’t tell them that, but I mean, that’s where we’re at. So I’m guiding them on what I would do, and if we hit it off and they like what I do and they’re at the place where they can invest in what I do, then they’re just telling me, “Okay, tell me when to come back.” And that’s exactly what I’ll do is I’ll say, “And look, it’s on me. Look, when we’re ready, I’ll reach out to you and let you know when it’s time to come back in. Is that okay with you? Is that okay if I give you a call or shoot you an email or text or send you a telegram? Whatever you want. You want a carrier pigeon; how do you want me to get back in touch with you.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: And I’ll make sure, and I keep a constant tickle file going so that they don’t miss any of those little heirloom milestones. And that’s what we refer to them as, heirloom milestones. So I’m not just spending seven hours with the newborn every which way to Sunday or the 40, over 40 or I think all those things are great, by the way. I’m not knocking those.

Allison Tyler Jones: No, not at all.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: But I would much rather have an hour and a half session in my studio start to finish with a three-year-old and make probably the same or more money than to go through all of that, because I’m going to call them back when I know that kid’s about to lose their teeth and say, “Okay, now let’s do that last little baby picture because once those teeth go out, things change. Trust me, it’s not cute sometimes.” And we’ve all been there, we’ve all had these kids. So that’s how I handle the retention. It’s on me. It’s 100% not on chance.

Allison Tyler Jones: Not leaving it up to chance.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Heck no.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so the reason that I brought that up, and I don’t think I put a bow around that very well, but I just feel like… I think most photographers I know are hardworking. They love their clients, they are willing to slay themselves for their clients. And so that’s what makes us great and makes us talented and makes us have heart for our business. But I just feel like we don’t put that time and effort into building a system that brings people back like the tickler file. How are you doing that? Are you doing that in your software? And your-

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, actually I’m just using, little fancy here, I’m just using my Google calendar. I mean, honestly, nothing fancy over here. Early on, we had another CRM or another studio management software. It’s not around anymore. So I do have StudioCloud that I use just for basic things, but I just use my Google calendar and I follow along and, hey, if I know all of a sudden that something’s… Because we’ve got social media now too, so there’s really no excuse. And if I notice, “Oh my gosh, XYZ family’s daughter just made it into the Nutcracker, they’re going to be in the Richmond Ballet.” You don’t think I’m all of a sudden going to be reaching out and say, “I need a ballerina,” or whatever. I mean, and even bigger things, bigger, bigger life things, I’m watching, I’m constantly watching those people because they’re my MVPs. They’re my family. They’re the people that I want to get to them. And the funny thing is that if I reach out and I call Joan and I’m like, “Hey, I need some ballerinas and I know that she’s always been…” She’s like, “I’ve meeting to call you.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: And I’m like, “Of course you have, but you’re never going to get around to it because you also have three million things to do. It’s my job.” That’s one of the most important things that we do in our studio right now. And people are going to say, “Oh, the most important thing I do is I photograph or I this,” the most important thing I do in my studio is keep in touch with and constantly communicating with my client base because they appreciate it. And even if they go, “No, not right now,” I’ll say, “Absolutely, no problem. It’s exciting. We’ll try to catch the show.” And that doesn’t mean… No is not going to hurt anybody. No has never killed anybody, by the way, it’s okay if it they say no.

Allison Tyler Jones: Because they’re not saying, “No, I’m never coming back, going to hate your guts.” They’re just like, “This year is not right now.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Not right now.

Allison Tyler Jones: I literally just had a client who comes every year, and we love her. Twins are so darling, and she’s like, “They have braces, and they really…” She goes, “We’re just going to hire somebody to just come do a quickie outdoor thing for this year’s card, and they want to wait until after the glow up, after the braces to do the big stuff for the wall.” And I’m like, “Fine.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: No problem.

Allison Tyler Jones: I’ll put you down for… I’ll call you next year.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Exactly. I’m not going to not stop. I actually had one of our really good clients reach out not too long ago, and she said, “I just have to tell you something. I just feel terrible.” And I’m like, “Oh, well, my gosh, what’s going on? What can we do?” And she had booked a mini session, a mommy mini session with another photographer, and she called me to tell me, and I’m like-

Allison Tyler Jones: Confess her sins.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: “Sweetie, I’m so excited for you to do that. I can’t wait to see him. I’m sure it’s going to be great. I hope it’s an awesome experience.” That’s the type of relationship building, but it’s a lot of work on our end. I think this is the point that if you hear nothing else from this podcast, guys, I don’t care if you’re day one or day one million in your studio, which is how long I feel like I haven’t been at my studio. But if you start with that now and you just are constantly talking to them about your next adventure together, people go, “Oh, wow.”

Allison Tyler Jones: And this is how it works.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes. They don’t have to worry about it. And especially us moms, we could talk about it and we can talk about it from the space of, “I’m so glad I had that now that I’m an empty nester or I wish I did it. I wish I did that generation portrait when my grandmother was still alive.” Or I can come from one of those spaces, either the success or the regret.

Allison Tyler Jones: Totally. That’s so funny. I think we must share a brain because that’s in my consultations. I literally say, “Look, I’m an older mom and there’s a lot. I know all the things that I’m really glad I did. I’m glad I shot. And then I know that there’s pictures that live in my head that I never got that I wish I’d had.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: And you can see them. Okay, and so I know that maybe the individual portrait of every single kid every single year probably don’t need that. Probably don’t. But there’s certain concepts that are important and then every family has a little bit different take on that.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. So how we track for retention is we use Monday.com just for project management, that kind of thing. And why, we just have a board that we use that’s for client contacting and it’s by year, and then we just duplicate the board for the next year. So it’ll have our clients, and then we can go in and have the notes that say, “Okay, we talked to Mary and Jamie. They’ve got a kid that’s coming back from…” In our world we have a lot of LDS clients, kids coming home from a mission because the kids go out for two years, but they won’t be home until 2027, so call in November of 2027.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so then we just know we don’t have to call them the next year, but we know that we better be calling them in 2027 or they’re going to go to Hawaii. They’re just going to have somebody do it on the beach because that’s their Hawaii picture, but they want to do a multi-gen in February or so that we are keeping track of what we’re talking about. And then we’re putting it on the Google calendar like you’re doing to make sure call them on a specific day.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly what we do. We don’t have as many going on missions, obviously, but they’re going away. They’re going to be studying abroad for a year. They’re going to be doing this. One of my big ones that I… Probably some of my biggest sales I’ve had in the past decade is if I know one of the kids is getting ready to get married, I always say, “Let’s get that last family portrait done.” And it sounds kind of not because… No shade to the fiancé, that’s not the point, but she’s your family unit that you started from and it’s going to grow. But especially boy moms really appreciate that it’s become a thing like, “Oh, get your haze and portrait before your son gets married.” And we’re reaching out on that. I mean, we also have had several clients that I know that I’ve had three in the past two years, and they have a child that’s transitioning.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I know I’m following along with the journey and I know in about three years I’m going to reach out and say, “It’s time to update that family portrait.” And I will do that and I will make sure that in three years we do. And we’ve done two of them so far because I knew, give it the time that it needed to digest and go through. But just that alone, and this is something that I think needs to be said, because I do that and I have such strong bonds and relationships with these amazing people, they naturally tell other people. Now they’re not telling people that aren’t at a space where they could invest in where our investment level is. And they’re not telling people that aren’t sentimental or like them, but when they’re running across family members or people out in the community that they think, “Oh, you have to go to Mary and Jamie. You have to use Mary and Jamie.” I don’t have to spend as much time and energy trying to post and market and do all the things because my clients do it for me.

Allison Tyler Jones: Exactly. I think that’s so true. And I want to back up for just one second on the last family portrait. So you having those, it reminds me of Tim and Bev Walden’s, what do they call theirs, the milestones or whatever, but just having an idea of when people should come, not that everybody’s going to hit every milestone, but just that they can look at that piece of paper and say, “Oh, yeah, this would be a good time to do it.” We know that newborn is big. We know that first year, really the first five years, it’s very easy to want to go because they’re changing so quickly. But then I do feel like that for some people that they get to about the tween and they start to fade off because they either get awkward or super busy.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so very often I’m talking to photographers and they’ll say, “Well, they’ve aged out. They’re not coming back anymore.” And there is a time where I do feel like clients will do that. They won’t come necessarily as often, and we can tell ourselves a story of like, “Well, they just won’t photograph their kids at that age.” So we can help them by saying, “You should, and here’s what I would do at those ages.” But even if they go away, let’s just say that they do, they go away during the awkward phase, like you just said. When you notice that that oldest one is either about to graduate from high school or go to college or you know they’re getting married and got engaged, you see it on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. That is a time that you can easily bring them back in if you haven’t been doing this.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: 100%, that’s a trigger. So for me, we still do some weddings. So if we do… We have people that we’ve done engagement bridal, maternity, and we’re photographing their kids. We’ve been doing it that long. So you get to that five year… 18 month is a big… That’s our big one. That’s our first big milestone because we sell brush oil portraits, and that’s when usually there’s a major investment made. They’re not that they’re not doing newborn, 3, 6, 9, 12, that’s a big one. That five-year-old portrait before the teeth fall out is another big milestone. Those gap ages grow. So that’s 7 to 14, 15, I tend to do a lot of… If I do a model call or an artist call or anything, that’s the only age I target.

Allison Tyler Jones: Those are the ones where they’re less likely to come in,.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: They’re less likely to come. And what I try to talk… I’m actually working on a project right now, a legacy project, and I’m so inspired by John Singer Sargent right now. I’ve been spending a lot of time in London. I’ve been spending a lot of time in museums. I’m just dying to mix up my paint style. So I’ve been working on this project, but I want them to come in and I want them to be photographed with what they love to do. So I’ve got baseball players, I’ve got basketball players. I had some kid bring in all of his books, a painter, equestrian, and I’m doing this black… And those have all been black and white. This year I’m doing a color project. It says color studies, but if I’m going to do anything that you would remotely call a promotion, which just means I’m comping the studio session fee, that’s all that means.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Then it’s going to be that I’m going to call for 7 to 15-year-old kids. That’s it. Individuals, not groups, individuals. And that’s where I get them still to come back in. But I think two other milestones that people forget about is when that oldest kid is about to go to high school, that’s a huge family change. So I watched that. So when the oldest is about to go to high school, and then of course when the oldest is about to go to college, those are two milestones that I’m saying we need to update the family portraits. And that four year gap tends to be a good enough amount of time that I’m not just pestering them or being too salesy or being asking too much, if I’m reaching out every three to four years, which is unless you’re having kids.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Now, you’re having Irish twins. Well, I’m reaching out every year because it’s time to get the next one. And I have one family, they had seven kids and we’ve done every little… Laura Beth and I are always on the phone, but I’m making sure we don’t miss any of those stages and that lost stage. And I refer to it a lot as that lost stage. Yeah, it’s weird, but it’s so fun. And these kids have so much fun doing these fun projects and showing off whatever it is, dance or violin, whatever. And that’s the only age I will target because it’s money in the bank.

Allison Tyler Jones: So smart. Well, and what I found too is that as I think many of us get in the business when we’re younger, especially the moms with the cameras that we all are, right?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Sure.

Allison Tyler Jones: That we started when our kids were little and we’ve kind of come up with our clients. And I find now that I’m a grandma that with these multi-gen sessions, there’s reasons for them to come back multiple times for that too. And that there’s a life that now we’re starting the next gen. And so being able to advise grandmothers why you… Okay, because hard to get everybody together. It’s hard to get all the in-laws. It’s hard to get… And so then you are not going to do that every year. How often are you going to do it? And what are you going to do in between? And so I have thoughts about all of that.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that. And the generation portraits, they’re so important to me, especially someone who… I lost my dad when I was so young, so I have so very few pictures. And I had my grandmother, who was my biggest fan who I loved, thought she hung the moon in the stars because she thought I hung the moon in the stars as a grandchild, passed away before I got married. So unfortunately, and always was very insecure about being photographed. So I don’t have anything from them. So I could write papers and theses about the regret and the missing. So I don’t want my clients to feel that way. I just absolutely don’t. And so when I talk about it’s from an authoritative place. It’s like, “Don’t let this happen. Don’t do this.” And there’s many times, especially over the past couple of years, Allison, where I’ve reached out and they’re like, “We know we need to do it, but we’re just not in a space.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I’m like, “Come on in, let’s just get it done and I’ll hold onto them for you because you’ve been a client of mine for 20 years, and I understand that right now we’re maybe when a job transition or something’s going on, but please don’t not do this. Please don’t do this.” That doesn’t happen very often. But I mean, you know how much it means to someone that I would do that and they come back in a year and they can still order it because now great grandma is gone or whatever. So we’ve all had those experiences with loss and the wish that I wish I had, I can’t do anything with the wishes.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: As a matter of fact, I said something the other day, and I don’t know how, I was talking to a guy, a very, very wealthy family here, and he’s like, “It is just really hard to get everybody together.” And I said, “But you know what? Everybody does get together.” And he was like, “When?” And I said, “For the funeral,” and that’s kind of a downer, but this guy and I have that kind of relationship. And he just looked at me and he is like, “You’re a genius.” I see what you’re doing there and that’s how I have to talk to… He’s a business guy. But it’s true. It’s absolutely true.

Allison Tyler Jones: If you don’t make the time, you’re not going to get it. And it’s not going to be if you wait until everybody’s skinny, if you wait, it’s just you’re not going to.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Whatever it is. It doesn’t get any better.

Allison Tyler Jones: I always say, “You ain’t getting any younger, skinny or thinner.” Well, I mean with the Ozempic, maybe you are.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Well, maybe you are, but I can thin you down. Don’t worry.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. How do you want to look?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I got you.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s why God invented Photoshop. We’re totally fine.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Exactly, exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yes. And I think the genius of paying attention to your existing clients versus constantly chasing the new, let’s talk about that for a second because I feel like that most of the marketing books, most of our marketing mindset is… And the world, I mean, every business that you go to, think of a gym or any place that you go, they’re constantly marketing for new clients. They’re constantly giving the deals to all the new people. And you’re like, “Excuse me, I’ve been coming here forever and you’re not going to give me the deal.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I hate that with the passion.

Allison Tyler Jones: Hate, hate, hate. Loathe entirely.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes. I don’t remember what it was, but several years ago there was a commercial and it was pretty much anti that whole philosophy. And I think it was a cell phone company and they’re like, “Wait a minute. I’ve been a client for seven years, but you’re going to give them whatever.” And I absolutely avoid that at all costs. If anybody’s going to get something special, it’s going to be someone who’s been committed and loyal to our business. Absolutely. Satisfaction is a moment. That’s an absolute moment. But retention is a pattern. What do we read? Atomic Habits and all the books, pattern, how long does it take to get into the habit of exercising? I wouldn’t know because I don’t do it, but eating well or whatever it is.

Allison Tyler Jones: So we’ve heard.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Allegedly, but it’s a pattern and retention is a pattern, and you can create that with your clients from the very beginning. It can start right now. It can start today. It’s a pattern. And it’s just like anything else. I mean, retention is a pattern and you have to treat it that way.

Allison Tyler Jones: So we say the first thing then is just having the expectation that they will return, changing their mindset, that expect that they will return, have a method to capture the information so that you know when to follow up.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: Some kind of project management software.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: System, whatever-

Allison Tyler Jones: Some system process, and then also just an idea. I think sitting down with a notebook and just creating your own idea of when do you think they should come back? Because that 18 month, when you’re saying that 18 month oil portrait, for me, my big portrait is two, I love the two. So it’s interesting, right, that here we’re two, we’re both very classic. We believe in family portraits, all of that, but we have different ideas about that.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Honestly, if the hair’s not going well, we’ll not put it off two.

Allison Tyler Jones: But I mean it’s like what I’m saying is there’s no one necessarily one right answer.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: There is no right answer.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s your individual expertise and how you see it because you are going to photograph that kid or that family, and even by subject. So there’s times where I feel like with my clients, I’m telling them, they’re like, “Okay, so you do the family every year.” I’m like, “Look, you don’t need to do the family every year. You’re not going to change that much. Nobody really cares about you.” And wouldn’t you rather bring the crew in here where you’re in your Lulu with a greasy ponytail rather than having to be dazzled?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: We can do the kids, do the family make every three years, but do the kids every year.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: That’s exactly right. I just had that happen recently. And I was like, “Okay, what are we going to do?” And she’s like, “I just can’t.” I’m like, “Okay, just bring the boys. I get it. Mitch is traveling, blah, blah, blah. Just bring the boys. This year was just all about the boys, and we will revisit next year.” I get it. And I absolutely agree. And then now we’ve agreed on something and we’re moving on. But anticipating that and being flexible with that, and again, treating it every time is the first time, “Okay, what are we going to do?” And it’s exciting and not just going through the motions. And I know you’ve got that energy in your space. I’ve watched you actually work in your space, so I know, but we’re the same way. I treat them with all the love and care that I would, whether it’s your first time or your 50th time, I don’t treat it differently.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s huge. That’s huge. Also, it’s not like, “Okay, so here we go. Your family’s coming in. Here’s the pro forma. We’re shooting mom and dad, we’re shooting…” I don’t have a pro forma. It’s like I want the concepts of… Even this year I did my own kids. And so one of my kids is he’s not loving the way he looks in pictures right now, gained a little bit of weight, but his wife is pregnant with their third, and it has been a very complicated pregnancy. She was very scared that maybe she might lose the baby, whatever. I mean, just been hard.

Allison Tyler Jones: And her favorite color is yellow. There is a story and a reason behind me giving you all this detail. Her favorite color is yellow, but it’s hard to dress everybody in yellow. My son does not look good in yellow. Okay. So she said when we went to do the pictures this year, she’s like, “Harrison doesn’t want to be in the picture, but I have this darling yellow dress. This pregnancy has been so hard. I hope everything goes okay, but I want a picture of me pregnant with the two kids in yellow.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Okay, I love it.

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s a concept.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: It’s absolutely a concept. And we can do that.

Allison Tyler Jones: And so I have her seated to the side, knees up with her baby right now, the toddler on her bump and then the oldest leaning, and they’re all in yellow, which is her favorite color. They’re all kissy, lovey. I think everything is going to be fine with the baby. Knock on wood. He’s due in October. It’s all going to be fine. But that’s tender. That tells a layered story for her little family. When that’s on her wall, she’s going to remember how hard that pregnancy was when she’s holding that baby.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: Do you know what I mean?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Oh, I do.

Allison Tyler Jones: So often we get into this like, “Okay, it’s got to be this whole big thing every single time,” where there are just slivers of life that sometimes we’re missing and there’s reasons to bring people back in. So like you were saying, there’s that five-year-old portrait before they lose their teeth, that’s this oil beautiful, whatever. But then when they lose the teeth, hey, get them back in here. Let’s do a quick little black and white studio of the missing teeth, right?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Right. And I don’t expect you to buy some 40 inch oil portrait of that, but I know that you’re going to look back and probably look at that and it’s just a giggle because you’re going to remember that or what they said or what… And I had a little guy in the studio on this, he’s baseball, but he was so serious and just his little mannerisms. And I photographed him since he was little. He’s already got the heirloom stuff, but just watching him. And I love those moments. I absolutely love those moments. And they run in and they know the dog. They know where everything is. They know where the candy bar is. They know if they’re good, they get to do it.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I mean, they know all the things. They own the house. My favorite thing is when I have… And this has happened so many times when I’ll have a mom or dad or something call or come by and they’ll like, “Yeah, they threw a fit at school because they wouldn’t let the school photographer take their picture because only Jamie or Mary could take their picture or whatever.” And that’s happened more than a dozen times or, “No, you don’t take my picture. You’re not my photographer.” She’s like, “You’re five. Just sit down and take the school picture.”

Allison Tyler Jones: That’s so funny. I had a client come back, we’d photographed them a couple of times, and so the kids were… The oldest was getting to be about five. And so they came in to look at the pictures and she’s like, “Okay, girls, I got to tell you…” We were at this family party with friends and different things. And she says, “I look over,” and Anthony, her oldest, is over there in the middle of these five-year-olds and they’re sitting there chatting and stuff. And so one by one, these other five-year-olds start coming over and they’re like, “So when can we go to see Ms. Tyler Jones?” And she’s like, “”What are you talking about?” “Well, Anthony says that when you go to Ms. Tyler Jones, you get candy and you get this and you get to dance and you get to bring your whatever.” So he’s over there selling it. The five-year-old is like selling it.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Put them on commission.

Allison Tyler Jones: I know. Totally.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Put them on commission. I mean, let’s go. I mean, from the mouths of babes, right? I mean, if the five-year-old gets it, we should get it. We should get it. You’re spending way more energy trying to… It takes so much more energy to get one new client than it does to maintain that relationship you’ve already got. And relationships are hard. I’m not saying that it’s easy. Relationships are work, they’re absolutely work, but it’s good work. It’s good work and it’s easier to maintain than to mine. I’m at that stage hopefully where I’m refining, not mining, you know what I mean? I’m just out there mining as many… Just get them in the door. Get them in the door. That’s not where that space that I want to be in. And even when we started out, that wasn’t the space I wanted to be in. So I’ve always kind of approached it with that mentality of refinement than mining just to get anything I could to pick up the phone or text or call or whatever, message, whatever people do.

Allison Tyler Jones: So let’s talk about product for a second. So structuring product while our albums to naturally encourage repeat visits or sessions, what are your thoughts there?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: So my heirloom, that milestone map or that heirloom map, those are places where I’m talking about wall art normally because there’s not that many. It’s a manageable amount. But other than that, I sell a lot of albums and or image boxes. I’m kind of 50/50 right now. Half my clients prefer the… I’ll use the 3XM folio boxes. They love those. They put them on shelves. It looks like a frame and they can change the pictures out. But then I still have a good amount that still love their albums and they’ll have them for each year some have or every other year. There’s that. And then accent type pieces, whether it’s just matted and framed type, smaller type pieces that fit on different walls or spaces. Because you know me, the first question I’m asking is how did you hear…

Mary Fisk-Taylor: If it’s a new client, how did you hear about us? And then one of the questions I’m asking in our first phone call, first conversation is could you send me images of any spaces in your home where you’re considering hanging artwork or currently hanging artwork? I hold onto those pictures forever. So we might just come in and we have an eight and eleven-year-old, and maybe I’m just going to design a really nice matted and framed piece that’s going to go between the two French doors. You know what I mean? Everything doesn’t have to be a 12, 15, 16, $18,000 sale. It might be just a couple thousand dollars or a couple hundred dollars, whatever your prices are. So I mean, I just want them to keep coming back to me. Of course, albums for me and image boxes are very profitable because I’m priced correctly, but everything that’s leaving my studio is leaving in some sort of a vehicle printed.

Allison Tyler Jones: Finished product.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Finished product. That’s just the space that we choose to stay in. And it works for us. And I understand that there’s three million people right now saying, “It doesn’t work. It doesn’t work.” I hear you. I know you believe that, but I promise you it can work. It has to be part of your studio system. And I think you’ve used this word, I keep using this word, setting up systems. Even though we’re creatives, we still need systems. And I think we leave that out. We create a system for workflow with the files and retouching and how we photograph. But I think we miss out on the sales systems and the marketing systems and these systems that are so important. I don’t think most people have those in place.

Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, and just along with the expectation that they will return built into that expectation is what you’re going to do, concept and then where it’s going to live product, right?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: So it’s like… Because how many times have we had a brand new mom that’s going to have this first perfect baby, and they see those first pictures of that newborn and they want to buy a million pieces of wall art, and you’re like, “I love that you want to do that, but I am not going to let you do that because you’re going to hate me later when this baby is way cuter than the little peanut that it is like the potato.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah. Wait, wait until it actually gets cute. I always think that, yeah, we just had a baby in our family. So I was thinking about this baby is cute though. I will say, however, it’s so true. It’s going to get so much better. It’s going to get so much better. So that’s the stage where I’m talking about albums or smaller pieces, image boxes, maybe one piece of wall art with mom and dad. I don’t do the newborn stuff. I’m not that cool. I’m not that patient. It’s too hot. I can’t, and I don’t want to spend that long with somebody else’s newborn. So it’s usually mom and dad, either skin or black shirt holding cute baby snuggle on up. That could be a piece of wall art. But that’s probably, maybe-

Allison Tyler Jones: I say I photograph newborns in context of family.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: Not newborns alone.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: No, same.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, because the newborns are… I don’t, but there are so many genius newborn photographers out there. So I have questions for you. So you are… Obviously you’ve been 30 years. Is there a key difference in how, or is there a difference in how you treat your legacy clients, your clients that have been coming back year after year versus first timers? Is there a difference in how you treat those two different?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes and no. And this is why. So if you are a legacy client and you call me and you really, because your kids are going to be home for college or your mom and dad are in town or whatever, and you really need me on a Saturday afternoon or Saturday or something, a day that I might not normally have sessions, I will come in for you. That is different versus if you’re brand new and we don’t have any skin in the game yet and I’m not sure where we’re going, I’m probably less likely to bend my rules because I find that it always disappoints me and makes me angry. So in that respect, yeah, you kind of earned the fact that, “Okay, I’ll come in on Saturday because you’re great client, I’ll do that for you.” But other than that, not really, prices are prices, I don’t discount. I mean, no, I don’t. I treat them the same.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So I would say I treat mine different in what you’re saying, priority booking.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yes.

Allison Tyler Jones: So if there’s a rule that’s going to be broken for somebody, it’s going to be for an existing client.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: There are certain genres that I don’t really do unless they’re existing clients. So generally we don’t shoot a senior unless they’re an existing client or we won’t shoot location because we’re primarily studio, 99.999% studio. But if somebody really… They got a new house or they’ve got a new horse or something like that, we’ll go on location, but only for existing clients. So rule breaking only happens for existing, which is what you just said.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: I think that it’s… The reason I wanted to ask that is because like you said, some new person, say somebody that won an auction and they come in and they haven’t been exposed to your pricing, they have no idea how you work. And they come in and they’ve got all these, yeah, let’s go to the fair. You can photograph us all day on the Ferris wheel, and then we’re going to go out on our speedboat and then we’re going to go here. And they have all the great ideas. And then they’re like, “Yeah, that should be about a couple hundred dollars.” You’re like-

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. No, see, that’s not going to happen ever. Yeah. So we are very clear about expectations from the get go. If you come in from an auction, we only give a signature session, which means it’s a studio session, which we do signature sessions Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday between 11:00 and 3:00. “Oh, no, I want to go outside. I want to be in your gardens. I want to go on location.” Fantastic. Let’s upgrade to one of our heirloom sessions. Now we’re talking about putting some money on the table. So that’s usually my best way to differentiate where this person is, if this person’s serious or not serious about us. Because I’ll come in between 11:00 and 3:00, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday and photograph you in the studio and hopefully you’ll buy, maybe you won’t, whatever. But if you go, “No, I’ll pay the extra whatever to upgrade.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: And so now we’re going to do something outdoors. Does that make sense? But that’s just the process of onboarding and understanding. And then I also make sure that they understand. I can ask if they have a budget even if they have a free gift certificate, I’m going to say coupon, a free gift certificate. I’m still going to ask them when’s the last time they were professionally photographed? And if they have it that they have a budget in mind for being photographed this year professionally. And a lot of times they don’t know. And I’ll say, “I just want you to understand that you’re going to fall in love. I just know you’re going to love these. I want to make sure I’m anticipating expectations. And just let you know, our wall art begins at this. We are a wall art studio. Everything we have is printed.” I’m making sure they understand that. That’s the space where they’re either going to dip or they’re in. And I’m okay with that. I don’t believe in them in the door and just… Get them in the door, give them your heart, soul, and everything.

Allison Tyler Jones: I hope that they buy.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: And cross your fingers and hope they like it. No ma’am. That’s not going to work for me.

Allison Tyler Jones: Well, it’s not fair to you. And it’s also actually not fair to them because you’re great at what you do, and they are going to love them all. And then they’re ticked because you’re holding their images hostage.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very angry. And that’s happening to a studio here right now. And they kind of are in one of those groups where they’re doing these. Anyway, they’re doing… And I mean the reviews, I feel terrible. This is a great photographer. It’s just I think they got some bad marketing advice and that’s exactly what’s happening. I felt bait and switched. I got in, I love it, and now I can’t have them. And I’m like-

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, that’s no good. It’s a fine line too, because they always are going to see a little bit more than what they-

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct

Allison Tyler Jones: … wanted to do, but-

Mary Fisk-Taylor: And if you don’t want client retention, that’s the number one way to make sure you don’t have client retention.

Allison Tyler Jones: Make them feel bait and switch. Yes.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: My goal is client retention. I want the pattern. I want them to understand that I’m going to make sure they don’t miss out on any of these opportunities. So you get those 18 summers, and I’m not going to let you miss any of those marks. So that’s my job. I take it very seriously and my clients understand that. And if you don’t, you just don’t answer my call. You just ignore me.

Allison Tyler Jones: Ghost.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Left me on read. Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Before we finish up, I want to talk about something that’s a little bit next level on this, because I think some of this we’ve heard before. I don’t even want to go down the whole client gifting notes and that kind of stuff, because I think that’s where people tend to go. I think that’s an easy place to go. We think just ply them with like, “Oh, if you refer somebody, I’ll give you $100 or that kind of stuff.” I don’t really want to go there. What I want to talk about is have you ever had to fire a client?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. And how do we maintain retention while still protecting our boundaries? So we want people to come back. We’ve all been beat to death with the old, the client’s always right, give them whatever they want. So thoughts about that?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah. So this just happened last week. As a matter of fact, it was a referral from one of my best clients, and I mean, every one of her referrals has been amazing until last week. And so we invited them in as an invitation session, which means it’s a complimentary session. And the dad got very involved and it was exciting because dad’s involved. This could be great. And then dad became a bully, and all of a sudden he’s texting me, “We spent an hour there. My wife went and bought clothes. I can’t believe you’re not giving me this, this, and this and this.” So I am being very kind. I’m being very professional. At some point, I was just done. And I said, “I understand and I hear you. Here’s the screenshots of the conversation I had with your wife. She understood exactly what I was giving her.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: She understood exactly what this was about. Here they are, I understand you’re not happy, but I also need you to understand I’m not going to be able to make you happy.” And I said, “How unfair would it be if I made an exception for you and I didn’t for anyone else? It’s not how I run my business. I run my business from a space of we’re all equal and we’re the same, and I can’t do something for you that I’m not willing to do for someone else. So what I need you to do is respect the fact that if you want to order, I’d be happy to sit down with you, but I understand you’re not happy. Trust me, I will not use these…” He signed a model release. I said, “I will not use these images for anything, and I’m really sorry that I’m not the right fit for you.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: And then the mom called in tears because of course she still wants to order, but I have no problem saying, “I’m not the right fit for you. I understand that, and that’s not on you and that’s not on me. It’s just sometimes that’s the way it works out.” And I’ve done that several times. A lot of times there’s a wedding couple that’ll come in and I’m like, “No, ma’am, we’re not going to jive on the wedding. I can’t spend that much time with these people,” especially as I’ve gotten older. But there’s a nice way to do it. And knock on wood, it’s not backfired on me in any space. I’m not saying it might down the road, I don’t know, but I’m not going to be bullied. I’m not going to be treated poorly by a client. I’m just not, it’s just not happening, and no one’s going to force me to do something I don’t want to do.

Allison Tyler Jones: Sure. Well, and one thing that I’ve learned, especially I think that’s the benefit of being in business a little bit longer. When you first start, everything feels so immediate and one-off. And-

Mary Fisk-Taylor: The fear.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. You have fear. You’re so afraid you’re going to lose clients or people are going to talk bad about you, give you bad reviews, whatever. But now that I have longer in the business, the more I realize that actually setting that boundary in a very… There’s nothing that you said that was unkind, that you’re not going to be a jerk to somebody ever.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re very respectful that actually I have had clients that maybe the first time we worked together, they were difficult.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, a little prickly. Yeah.

Allison Tyler Jones: Prickly or just hard where you kind of are thinking, “I don’t think these guys are ever coming back.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Right.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then they call the next year and you’re like, “Really?”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: It happens.

Allison Tyler Jones: And then you’re like, “Okay, so now if we’re going to work together this year, remember last year X, Y, Z, okay, so let’s get out ahead and do…” I am realizing now, I have some clients that the first couple of times we worked together were a little fraught and hard, and I was making up a lot of stories about like, “Okay, they’re difficult. They’re hard, but I held my ground in a kind… I didn’t change my boundaries, I didn’t change my prices, I didn’t change any of that. And now they’re trained.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: They’re trained.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: And they want what I do. They get the rules. We are all on board, and now we just can get along. But for some clients, it took two, sometimes three years to get to the where it’s great. Some clients just come in and they’re great from the beginning.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Correct.

Allison Tyler Jones: You guys just gel, singing kumbaya, we’re going to go to dinner together. They end up being your friends, but some don’t think the way that you do and they don’t communicate the same way. And so you’ve got to… I’ve had even a client that I fired that came back that was kind of hard to work with, but she was like, “Okay, actually, I realize you’re the only one that can do this, and I will follow the rules and I will do the things.” She’s still kind of hard to work with, but she gets it.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: No. Yeah. We actually had that too a couple years ago, and she was the only one in her cul-de-sac that we kind of fired and she was going to go elsewhere and ended up kind of Mea Culpa. But I think when you have what you’re talking about, it’s coming from a place of not understanding. It’s coming from a space of they’ve either used another photographer and they have 300 digital files somewhere, and they don’t understand how we work. Even though we were very clear before we booked the appointment, how we work, they don’t understand why we’re so expensive, all the things.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: So I think what happens is if you’re newer or you’re a little bit in this fear factor space, you’re justifying the… And you start doing this tap dance and this shuck and jive that go, “Oh my god, and this is why I charge, and maybe this and maybe…” No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, it’s okay. Like, “Oh, I understand. And that’s not the studio that we are. That’s not how we run our business. And I understand that it’s an investment.” I just keep repeating back to them that they’re right.

Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: You’re right. Yeah. It is expensive. Next. I mean, when you start getting anxiety about it and start giving in, then they are going to run over you. But I just find if we stand our ground and we just repeat back exactly what they said and agree, I don’t have to justify what I charge. I don’t have to justify that I don’t work on Sundays. I don’t have to justify anything to you quite frankly, but I can hear you and I can sit here and tell you that I hear you.

Allison Tyler Jones: Have unconditional professional regard.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: There we go. That’s it. Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: It’s like my old business partner. She had a friend that was a criminal attorney who defended literally the worst of the worst. And she’s like, “How do you do that?” People have done such horrible things, and he’s like, “Unconditional professional regard.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: There you go.

Allison Tyler Jones: So I think of that all the time. It’s like, “Okay, well, they’re not a murderer that I’m sitting here talking to. This is just somebody that doesn’t like that my pictures cost more than they want to pay. We can find a place.” The wording I use most often is, we totally get that not everybody needs or wants this level of service.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely.

Allison Tyler Jones: Or is willing to afford it. Totally get it.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely. I had a dad say just a couple of weeks ago, he is like, “This is buying a Rolex.” And I said, “I promise you, 10 years down the road when this little guy is off at college, this is going to mean way more than that Rolex or whatever.”

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re like, “Yeah, so sell one of them and let’s do this. Come on.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Let’s roll, let’s go, let’s go. Let’s dance. Let’s go.

Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, and sometimes if you know they’re a watch guy or they’re a car guy, whatever, I can say, “Look, it’s just a watch. Come on, let’s go.”

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Exactly.

Allison Tyler Jones: I just admit it. I don’t need to defend anything.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: At all. That’s the thing. And I think that’s what a lot of people feel like they have to do, and you don’t have to do it, guys, I promise you don’t.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. I love that. Yay. All right. Well, any final thoughts on client retention? Any-

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Just start today. Start today. Come up with your systems and plans and start now. I don’t care where you are in your journey. If that’s not been a priority, I urge you to put it on top of your list and start today because it frees up a lot of your time and energy because you’re not out there constantly fretting over getting new people in the door and training them. They’re already trained. Just treat them like you probably already are. Treat them amazing and they’re going to refer people to you. And if you’re not getting referrals, ask for referrals.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: I mean, every time someone walks out the door, or I do an installation or whatever, one of the things I say with practically a little tear in my eye is, “Oh, darn it. Now this is over. We’ve got this all delivered, and now I won’t get to talk to you or see you every week. It’s been so fun working on this project with you. I love… I wish every client was like you, I need more of you.” And I guarantee you when I say that, 9 times out of 10, they’ll say, “Well, I need to send you to my X, Y, Z, or my friend or my teacher,” and I’ll get two or three people that they’ll send to me because I just said those words. So much easier.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. That’s a golden little nugget headed out the door MFT.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Yeah, that’s a good one.

Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. I love that. Okay, so for those of you who are listening, don’t go away, when you get off the treadmill or you park your car, make the note. Just set the expectation. The next conversation you have with a client, the next discovery call that you do, just start talking about, “Well, this is how it works and we’re going to do this now. And then as we head into the future, we can do this, this, and this.” And once you start having those conversations, that expectation is set. You will be amazed at how people love it, want it, they love you, they love your talent. You’re amazing at what you do. And of course, why wouldn’t they want to come back year after year?

Mary Fisk-Taylor: Absolutely. That’s the truth.

Allison Tyler Jones: You’re the best. Thanks, Mary.

Mary Fisk-Taylor: You are. Thank you. It’s been fun.

Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram at do.the.rework.