Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait photographers to uniquely brand, profitably price, and confidently sell their best work. Allison has been doing just that for the last 15 years, and she’s proven that it’s possible to create unforgettable art and run a portrait business that supports your family and your dreams. All it takes is a little rework. Episodes will include interviews with experts from in and outside of the photo industry, mini-workshops, and behind-the-scenes secrets that Allison uses in her portrait studio every single day. She’ll challenge your thinking and inspire your confidence to create a profitable, sustainable portrait business you love through continually refining and reworking your business. Let’s do The ReWork.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hi, friends, and welcome back to The ReWork. Today’s episode is all about difficult conversations. When things just go sideways in a conversation with a client and you’re not really sure how to respond, you feel like that you’re put on the spot and you feel like that you’re either going to completely cave or maybe you’re going to come off snotty and lose a client, so you’re not really sure which way to go. Today’s guest, Kristen Murray, is going to talk about her own difficult conversation that she had with a client and how she embraces the idea of holding space for these difficult conversations, holding space for yourself to get your mind right and figure out what it is that you’re going to say, collect your thoughts, and then holding space to actually listen to what the client is saying, what they’re really saying, not what you maybe are making up about what they’re saying.
Allison Tyler Jones: So we’re just going to discuss it, all the ways to navigate difficult conversations with clients. This will be especially great for any of you who have a difficult time with conflict or confrontation, I know that it’s going to be a game changer for you. So let’s do it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I am so excited today to have a very special guest in The ReWork podcast studio, Ms. Kristen Murray. Welcome, Kristen. I’m so happy to have you here.
Kristen Murray: Thank you so much, Allison, for inviting me on.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, I loved having you in our boot camp this year and then in Art of Selling Art, and now you’re a member of our Mindshift community. And your business is so fascinating to me because it’s a niche of a niche of a niche.
Kristen Murray: Yes, it is.
Allison Tyler Jones: So tell our listeners, for those that don’t know you, what are you doing? What’s going on over there? And where are you doing it?
Kristen Murray: I’m Kristen Murray, I am based right outside of Richmond, Virginia on the East Coast, but I will travel anywhere and everywhere. I’ve got this great van life, so I’ll do some dog portrait road trips up to Maine, down to Georgia, so I travel all over. I specialize in adventurous dogs, but also hunting dogs more specifically. I’ll photograph an any dog, obviously, but people, like outdoorsy dog moms, upland hunters, those are my main focuses.
Allison Tyler Jones: You’re basically a pet photographer. The focus is on the pet, on the adventure, and the humans may or may not be in the picture.
Kristen Murray: I make it a point to make all of my clients get in at least a few pictures because I love-
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that.
Kristen Murray: Well, you can take a photo of your dog, but you can’t capture the interaction that you have, the bond and the love. Dogs are all a big part of our life, but also we are the biggest part of our dog’s life, and I love capturing that interaction. So, yes, the focus is on the dog. They are never an accessory. They’re always the hero, but I have people in them as well. Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. And so you have a van and you will travel and you’ll go to hunting preserves, maybe estates where people maybe are hunting on their own properties.
Kristen Murray: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And then specific breeds of dogs or any dog with a human?
Kristen Murray: Any dog with a human. I have photographed Chihuahuas, and Pomeranians, and stuff, but most of my clients who come to me, they’re the medium size, the active dogs, the outdoorsy, adventurous, let’s go hike in the mountains or go down by the river and play, or during the hunting season, that’s my biggest focus.
Allison Tyler Jones: Do you have a favorite breed to photograph?
Kristen Murray: The Brittany. I think that’s just because I had one, the painting behind me, you see that? That’s my dog’s dad. I fell in love with him on a hunt, and I was like, “If you ever saw her letter, take all my money, just give me a puppy.” And I ended up getting her, they’re beautiful dogs. I mean, I love all dogs, but bird dogs are-
Allison Tyler Jones: Bird dogs are your favorite.
Kristen Murray: Yeah, bird dogs are my favorite.
Allison Tyler Jones: Because they’re so smart.
Kristen Murray: They’re very intelligent. We’ve got an 11-year-old shepherd cattle dog mix, and I love him to death, but Cedar came in at eight weeks old, and I’m like, “Oh, you are so much more intelligent than him.” And he’s like 10. Yeah, it’s funny.
Allison Tyler Jones: Isn’t that funny? That’s so funny.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: So how long have you been in business?
Kristen Murray: I’ve been full-time for four years now. I quit my job in the middle of a pandemic and went into doing this. But before then, I dabbled, “Oh, I’m a photographer.” I never owned the fact that I was a photographer. It was always a hobby, and then I almost died on a… Well, I could have died. I didn’t almost die, but I could have died on a work thing. There was an accident, and I was like, “I’m not going to die in a job that I don’t like. It’s time to make a change.”
Allison Tyler Jones: “If I’m going to die, it’s going to be in a stream with a dog trying to save me.”
Kristen Murray: Yes. Or in the middle of let’s trade in this to go out with hunters in the middle of a field with birds and gunshots. If I’m going to die, it’s going to be like that.
Allison Tyler Jones: What were you doing before?
Kristen Murray: I was working for a family business. They owned a mulch yard, and I was loading a truck full of mulch, and it was just a perfect storm of operator error and bad environment conditions. It had rained before, and I dropped the wheel into a big rut, and the bucket was in the air, and I just rolled the loader. And the door was wide open, I wasn’t wearing a seatbelt, I had gotten super complacent, so I just held on for dear life to the steering wheel and just rode it down. And-
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh my gosh.
Kristen Murray: Yeah. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, so that was a defining-
Kristen Murray: Two weeks later I was like, “I’m done.”
Allison Tyler Jones: … defining moment, defining moment. Okay.
Kristen Murray: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, the thing that I’m so impressed with Kristen, as you’ve come into our community, and I’ve got to know you a little bit, is just I can’t believe you’ve only been in business for four years, because first of all, your work is absolutely gorgeous.
Kristen Murray: Thank you.
Allison Tyler Jones: We’ll link to your website in the show notes, but I mean, these dogs just look regal. I mean, they remind me of those portraits that Kentucky horse breeders would have of their horses. They’re stud-
Kristen Murray: That is so kind of you to say.
Allison Tyler Jones: But even bigger than that, it’s like you said, I think your idea of the dog as the hero, that is very apparent in your work.
Kristen Murray: Thank you, thank you. That is something that I strive for, so to hear that coming from you, that means a lot to me. Thank you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, no, it’s true, it’s very true. And I love, I think our listeners, it’s helpful, sometimes when you’re starting out and it’s hard and you’re trying to figure out the business, and you’re kind of doing a little of this and a little of that, like you said, you’re not really owning the fact that you’re in business, or maybe you’ve been owning the fact that you’ve been in business, but you’re ready to make a genre change or maybe dig into more of what you already are doing. I think it does help to kind of go back to that like, “Why am I doing this in the first place, and what do I really love about what I do, and then what story am I telling?” I mean, there’s just a lot of layers there that I love in your work.
Kristen Murray: Thank you, thank you. Well, I think the part of it is too, is you have to find your why. I’ve done coaching in the past, and I was always resistant to finding my why, and I was told by random people like, “You’ve got to do all the genres. Don’t put yourself in a little box.” And it’s like, “This is what I love, this is what I’m good at.” People come to me for what I do. So if you find something that you love, just really lean into that. That’s what I think.
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, and I think when you do have a near-death experience or a life defining moment, whatever you want to call it, something that kind of-
Kristen Murray: I like defining.
Allison Tyler Jones: … narrows your focus is you kind of say, “Man, what am I waiting for? If I’m going to do something,” like you said, “If I’m going to die at work, I want to be doing something that I love. I want to be doing what I love.” Yeah.
Kristen Murray: Exactly. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: So that’s awesome. Okay, so you came in, we met this summer, and you did the Art of Selling Art. And what do you feel like, because you had a few instances of things that happened that are common to all art photographers everywhere, hard conversations with clients or whatever, but what do you feel like was helpful about that? Talk about that a little bit more.
Kristen Murray: Yeah, so I remember there was one part of Art of Selling Art when you talked about how to handle difficult client conversations, and more importantly, what to do when a client is super upset. And you can either handle it like it’s no big deal, which is going to make them even more angry. When my husband tells me to calm down, it’s like it goes over as well as baptizing a cat. So you can either take that approach or you can take the, “Oh my gosh, this is the end of the world. I’m so sorry. Who do I have to fire to make this right?” And just really go overboard, which kind of disarms them a bit, I think. You can kind of come to a resolution.
Kristen Murray: So I had that experience actually only like what, a month or so after that lesson in ASA, and I had a client who called me. She was very, very upset, nothing to do with photography, stuff to do with bird dog stuff. We had seen each other out recently in public and just I thought our interaction went fine. I left feeling great. She was a past client, and apparently I read the situation completely wrong, and she called me the next day and just let me know how upset she was. I don’t think the specifics matter here, but we just fundamentally disagree on some bird dog stuff.
Kristen Murray: And so she called me and left a voicemail and then called back and left another one. She was like, “I’m not done.” And they were scathing voicemails. And I listened to them and I was shaking, and I was really upset. Well, first of all, in the past, if this would’ve been anyone else, I wouldn’t have even responded. But in the past, I probably would have called her back and try to defend myself. I can get a little defensive at times.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Kristen Murray: I mean anyone can, but it’s something that I’ve tried to work with or work on about myself. But I think in the past, I probably would’ve just called her back, been really defensive, made the situation entirely worse, and just-
Allison Tyler Jones: Well, you just would’ve dug in, basically dug in on your own position, which isn’t going to help anything, and then just burn it to the ground.
Kristen Murray: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: You didn’t mean to start that way, but that’s where it’s going to end.
Kristen Murray: 100%, yes. I’ve done that in the past, not with my husband and stuff, but yeah, no, it makes it completely worse. So this time I was like, channeling my inner Allison. I’m just going to call her back. So I called her back and I was like, “Hey, I got your voicemail.” Smile on my face, pretend like I didn’t hear her voicemail.” I was just like, “Hey, just saw I missed your call. How’s it going?” And she was like, “Yes, I’m very upset with you, I’ll never trust you as a photographer again. I can’t believe the person that you’ve turned into. You’re horrible, dah, dah, dah.”
Kristen Murray: I let her talk, and I did explain myself, but I did not defend myself aggressively. It was more of a, “You asked how I could do this, I’m telling you why I’ve made this decision.” I never tried to change her mind, I never tried to convince her that I’m right and that she’s wrong. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, I don’t think either one of us is right or wrong. It’s just different in how we work with our own dogs. Both of our dogs-
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, the parenting.
Kristen Murray: Yes, it’s 100% parenting. Both of our dogs are happy, healthy, loved, safe. They’re completely fine. We just fundamentally disagree on how to parent our bird dogs. And I spent right about an hour on the phone with her just letting her talk, again, explaining what we did and just kind of validating the fact that, “Yes, I understand you. I understand why you do the things that you do. Here’s the reasons why I do it.” I just held space for her. And at the end of that call, she was like, “Well, I’d like to hire you for my friend.” So it went from like, “I’ll never trust you again,” to, “Well, I’d like to hire you.” And that wasn’t my goal going into this call at all. As somebody who I had a relationship with and would like to continue, I love all my past clients, whether or not they hire me again, I didn’t want her to have that much of a bad taste in her mouth about me.
Allison Tyler Jones: You don’t want that negative energy out there.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, for sure.
Kristen Murray: And so that was my only goal in calling her back was to like, “Let’s just get down to the bottom of this.” And then the fact that she hired me afterwards, I had to chuckle about. And I did that, I gave her friend a great experience. She had an album, everything was wonderful. She called me back, the client called me back, to thank me just so much about the whole experience and everything. So I just think that this day and age, being able to disagree with people but still hold space and respect the person at the end of the day, it’s really much needed, and I think a lot of people could benefit with learning how to do that.
Allison Tyler Jones: I could not agree more. And I think especially in the United States, and especially in just the year that we’ve been through with 2024, election year, all of that, everybody’s been talking about division, all the things. And now there’s new things coming in, and some people are super happy about that, and some people are super not happy about that. But I do feel that if you are able to do what you just said, you have a superpower, you have something that most people don’t have. And when you run a business, if you’re daily on Facebook just printing a rant about, and I don’t care which side you’re on, left or right, I don’t care, or talking about, “This is the only way to parent a bird dog. This is the only way, and you’re an idiot, you’re an idiot if you do it another way.”
Kristen Murray: I see that a lot in the dog world. People get really up in arms over training methods. They get really up in arms over like cropped ears and docked tails. And I take the position of most people who abuse their dogs aren’t going to hire me to photograph their dogs because they don’t care about them that much. So if you’re coming to me and you want me to create artwork of your dog, you love your dog enough to do that, meaning you’re not going home and abusing your dog. So at the end of the day, if you use a prong collar or an e-collar or whatever, I don’t care what your training methods are, I’m going to photograph you, things are going to be fine. I have never had a client come up to a session and just yank on the prong collar and shut their dog down.
Kristen Murray: But I’ve seen so many photographers out there who are like, “These things are not allowed at our session. Don’t even call me if you use and e-collar. We’re 100% force free here. This is the only way to do things.” And I’m like, “Do you know how many people, A, that you’re alienating, but, B, you’re leaving so much money on the table?” Which is fine because I travel and I’ll take that money instead, but it blows my mind that people are so… I don’t agree with cropped ears, but I’m not going to not photograph a dog with cropped ears.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. Well, yeah. And so-
Kristen Murray: I’m just not going to crop my dog’s ears.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right. And I think this also applies, if we go back to the parenting thing, for those of you who are not photographing animals but are photographing humans, I mean, we see a lot. I see a lot of parental interaction, I see a lot of parenting, I see a lot of how kids are behaving or whatever, and you can have a lot of judgment about that. First of all, you don’t know the whole story. The thing that I thought was interesting about this conversation you had with your client that I just made notes on, one was that you just let her talk, you explained your position without defending your position, and then you held space for there to be multiple ways to see something. And I think we can really help our clients, we can help them parent, we can help them parent their animals, we can help them parent their kids, especially if they’re new dog owners or new parents. We’re all just trying to figure it out. Everybody is.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And so if we can hold space for that for each other, then, man, that’s amazing. I’ve seen people after the election, people posting, “If you voted for X, Y, Z, unfollow me. I hate your guts.” Whatever. It’s like, “Okay, honestly? Really? Are we going to do that?” And so you could say, “Oh, well, then you’re just going to sell out and you’ll do whatever.” But no, I think there’s just a lot of ways to look at things and we can actually create beautiful artwork for clients that celebrates their family, that celebrates their animals, and in the way that they’re doing it, and the way that they’re parenting, and the way that they’re raising their dogs or whatever. So I love that holding space for differing opinions. And so, yeah, I think that starts with not going on social media and just blowing everybody up over every single little thing because that just kind of shows you as a scary place to be, like who knows what.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. So I will say, going back to what you just referenced in the Art of Selling Art, that idea of in the art of selling art, one of the things that I talked about in that lesson that you were referencing is that the Steve Jobs, I think when they started Apple, when they were training their customer service people, so that our listeners know what it is that you were referencing, they said that when somebody calls with a problem, you have two ways that you can handle it. One is it’s the end of the world and the other, it’s no big deal. And whichever position you take, they’re going to take the opposite. So if somebody calls you and says, “Okay, my holiday cards came and the name was printed wrong, and I can’t believe that you’re so lame that you would do this,” then if you act like, “Hey, it’s no big deal. Why are you getting so upset about your holiday cards?” They are going to go end of the world, nuclear, and burn you down.
Allison Tyler Jones: But if you’re like, “Oh my gosh,” like you said, “Who do I have to fire and make this right? I’m going to go to the lab and burn it down. We’re going to kill everybody. We’re all going to just commit suicide at noon because your holiday cards were wrong.” Just kidding. But you’re taking it very seriously, and you see that in any relationship. When you take it very seriously, when your husband says to you, “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry that I said that to you. That was horrible. How could I have been like that?” Then you can take the position of, “Look, it wasn’t that bad.” But if he’s like, “Why don’t you just calm down? It’s no big deal.” Then you’re like, “Excuse me, listen to me, Linda”
Kristen Murray: Oh, yeah. That’s one of our favorites.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. When Ivan and I got married, I said, “There’s two things that I don’t ever want to hear from you. One is, don’t ever…” Well, three. “One, don’t ever shush me. Two, don’t ever tell me to calm down. And three, don’t ever tell me you look fine. It’s a superlative like you’re so hot or go change out of that right now. There’s no fine.” Which of course gave him all the ammunition. So whenever I’m getting wound up, he’ll say, “Shh, calm down, you look fine.” Just send me off the deep end. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: So this is a situation where it wasn’t about you had made a mistake on an order. This was a conversation that you had with somebody about how you felt about dogs. And this easily had just been a conversation I would have with a client about parenting, which I do all the time. And they thought about it and called and said, “I can’t believe you’re such a horrible parent.” And so like you said, you could have been completely defensive or you could have said, “Hey.” But I think that’s interesting what you did, because you said she left these huge long messages, but you just called her back and said, “I saw you called,” and didn’t even reference the messages.
Kristen Murray: Oh, yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And that is a bit of genius, my friend.
Kristen Murray: And I called with a smile on my face too. I had to calm myself down a little bit because I was very taken aback and also hurt because I love my dog. Anyways, so yeah-
Allison Tyler Jones: Somebody called you a bad mom.
Kristen Murray: Basically, yeah, she called me a bad mom. So basically I calmed myself down, had a smile on my face, and I just said, “I saw that you called.” And I let her start it.
Allison Tyler Jones: I think that’s a bit of genius. I really do, because if you’d called and said, “I got your message and let’s do a Zoom call so I can give you a PowerPoint on why you’re wrong and I’m right,” it’s just never going to work.
Kristen Murray: Well, also, I didn’t want to put her on the defensive either.
Allison Tyler Jones: Right.
Kristen Murray: Yeah. I really went into this thinking, there is a way to get to the bottom of this like, “We had a great experience in the past. I hate that you feel this way now. We’ve got to talk this out. And at least just at the end of the day, we’ve got different opinions and we still respect each other as people.” And that’s what we got to, so I was very happy with the outcome of that situation.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. And that reminds me of another conversation that I’ve had with a couple of clients. So my situation was emailing a proposal that was more than I think what they thought, and maybe it hit them at a bad time. And the client emailed back and said, “How can you in good conscience charge this kind of money? This is ridiculous.” Like, “Oh my gosh.” Just kind of really letting me have it. And like you said, it took me back and I went like, “Excuse me.” And I’m thinking of all of this defense. So taking the time to let all of that adrenaline course through your body, and then pausing and saying, “Okay, what do I want out of this? Do I want to burn this person down, or do I want a client, or do I want to understand where they’re coming from, or is there something more here?”
Allison Tyler Jones: And the other thing I think too, when we are talking about understanding each other and difficult conversations, I think is context. So written communication, text, or especially email. Now, in your case, you were listening to her, so you had pretty good context, but so often you don’t. So often it’s a text or an email. And we immediately, and I see this happen all the time, it’ll happen. Stacey, my retoucher, associate photographer, she’ll read something and she’ll say, “Oh, Kristen Murray called and she’s mad about this.” And I’ll read it and I’ll say, “I don’t think she’s mad. I think she’s just asking a question.” And then she’ll do that for me too. I’ll say, “Oh my gosh, so-and-so called, and they’re mad about this.” And she’s like, “No, I don’t think they’re mad. I think they’re just confused.” So getting them on the phone, not firing back, because you could have just chickened out, girlfriend, and sent her a big email, right?
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: But you didn’t, you got her on the phone and just said, “I think that’s great too.” Like, “Hey, we’ve had a great relationship. I feel horrible about this. I don’t want this to be our relationship. Talk to me.” And then let them just vent.
Kristen Murray: Yes. Well, I think a lot of people are afraid of any type of conflict.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Kristen Murray: They don’t want to rock the boat, they don’t want to have these difficult conversations, so they just ignore it, which makes it worse. Or they’ll get on an email and fire off something back and it’s like, “Okay, well, now the other side doesn’t have any context, and we just really just need to talk this out.”
Allison Tyler Jones: I don’t love conflict. I don’t like confrontation either. I really don’t. And I’ve been afraid of that my whole life. I’m an oldest child, I’m a pleaser. I don’t really like confrontation, but I realize that if I shove it off, like you said, it does make it worse.
Kristen Murray: Much worse. Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: And you don’t have to be a jerk. I can just call you and say, “Kristen, okay, where did we go wrong? Because I love you, I think you’re awesome, we’ve done great work together. Talk to me.”
Kristen Murray: Yeah. Well, when I say conflict and confrontation, I don’t mean aggressive.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Kristen Murray: I just mean like, “We’ve got different opinions and we’ve got to sort this out.”
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. But see, I think that’s an important point because we build it up in our head that it is going to be negative, that it is going to be some violent thing, and it doesn’t have to be that. You can just listen to somebody, or like what I always say is, if you’re feeling overwhelmed and in the moment, like you’re on the conversation, for those of you who are listening to this that are thinking, “Oh my gosh, if I called, I wouldn’t know what to say. And I never know what to say until after I get off the phone and then I think of the perfect thing to say,” well, how to solve that is that when you’re in the conversation and you don’t feel like you’re coming up with the right thing, to just listen more.
Kristen Murray: Yes. So many people listen to respond that they don’t listen to understand.
Allison Tyler Jones: Sure.
Kristen Murray: And if we just let them talk and just listen.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. And I think this is a perfect example because who knows what you said that triggered her? It might’ve been just she was having a bad day, it might’ve been that she was feeling insecure about how she was dealing with her own dogs. Might’ve been… I mean, who knows? We just don’t know what’s going on in people’s minds. So for my specific client that came at me that day, they had just received a $200,000 grading bill that they had on their brand-new house that they didn’t think they were going to have to pay, and their loan had already closed. So there was all these other-
Kristen Murray: Outside forces at play that had nothing to do with you.
Allison Tyler Jones: It had nothing to do with me. They were just upset about something else. And so once we got on the phone, and they shared that, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, horrible. We just finished a house too. We had a bunch of stuff like that. I totally get that. We don’t have to do this right now. We can put it into phases or payments, and you’re not required to do anything. You asked me for it and I sent you the bill, but we can do whatever you want to do.” Then you became somebody that helped them get what they want and help them solve their problems, and just calm it down, put down the pitchforks and the torches. I like that, listen to understand rather than listening to respond. I think it’s so good.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Some questions for you. What is something that you’ve learned? I mean, because like you said, you’ve done other coaching. What do you feel like being in the Art of Selling Art or the Mindshift membership that you’ve learned that has been specifically helpful for your business?
Kristen Murray: Well, outside of how to handle difficult client conversations, there was another thing that you said about the pricing, how you make smaller increments between sizes and smaller increments between prices. Because I do everything on the long edge or buckets, but they’ve always had such a big jump. So when people see that like, “Oh, it’s an $800 jump between…” Yeah, of course I’m going to size down, but now it’s a $200 jump.
Allison Tyler Jones: Putting more sizes between rather than just a small, a medium, and a large, you’re putting other sizes in between, because really then they can get the size that’s most appropriate for their home.
Kristen Murray: Exactly. And since I don’t ever show my clients a price list, because it would look like The Cheesecake Factory, and look, I get really overwhelmed when I go in there, but I always share my pricing. So how I do this is if you’re out at dinner and the waiter, the server comes up to you and says, “Hey, these are our specials. What would you like? Do you have any dietary restrictions? Here are the things that I think you would love.” Versus, “Here’s The Cheesecake Factory menu.” I’m going to order off the conversation with the server. I’m not going to order based on the… Yeah. So my menu, my in-house menu has so many different prices, so many different numbers, so many different… It’s huge. But my clients never see that, so it’s so much easier for them to have a less stressed experience. So that was something that has helped a lot with the pricing.
Allison Tyler Jones: And I love how you executed that so quick and just implemented so many great things. Again, four years in, and you’re doing so great. What advice would you have either for yourself as in earlier years, or for a photographer who maybe wants to do what you’re doing that’s struggling in some way?
Kristen Murray: I wish in the beginning I would’ve done more. I wish I started with IPS and artwork from the very beginning.
Allison Tyler Jones: In-person sales.
Kristen Murray: Yes, I would say 100% start that in the beginning because it’s easier to start with the business model that you want to continue doing. But I would say taking more of the customized approach to each client. I started off with packages in the beginning, and collections, and like, “Oh, you would get a 16×20 fine art print along with a handful of…” I had so much stuff. I’m like, “Here’s some acrylic blocks and here’s an album,” and you would bundle. But you learn very quickly that at a certain level of clientele, they don’t want that bundle stuff. They want what they want and make everything completely custom to me. Don’t try to fit me in a box. I want what I want. How do we make it happen?
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah. Well, and just like when you go to a good doctor or any kind of expert that you’re dealing with, okay, you’re going to the best pediatrician in the world for your kids, whatever, what does every mom ask? What would you do if it was your kid? Or you’re going to the best vet for your specific breed of dog, what would you do if it was your dog? And so that’s what people want to know. What would you do if this was you? If you were at my house, what would you do? That’s what they’re hiring us for.
Kristen Murray: Being the expert, yes. That is something else. So I think one of the things that I excel at, and one of the reasons why I have done as well as I have is because I do take fast action. So I learn things and then I implement them or I test them out, and I always see if this works in my business versus if it doesn’t. But taking the lead of, “This is what you need to do for your home, this is the size that goes here, this is the frame. Here’s some other options, but these are my artist’s recommendations.” When you take the lead with your clients, oh, they feel so much more taken care of because they’re not the expert. I’m not going to go to the doctor and say, “Hi, do this for me, X, Y, and Z.” No, I’m going to listen to what they suggest, and then I’m going to, most of the time, take their suggestions. Just be the expert and have that confidence in the work that you are doing, and your clients will love you for it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Absolutely. And I think that going back, even just circling it to bring us home on this is that when you fear that confrontation, some of us feel like it’s confrontation to express our opinion, that this is how I think you should it, because what if I say, “I think this should be in a gold frame,” and then they say, “But I hate gold and I would never use gold in my house”? Okay, then you say-
Kristen Murray: Well, here are some other options.
Allison Tyler Jones: If you hate gold, it comes in silver too.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: There’s nothing that’s completely irretrievable.
Kristen Murray: Yeah.
Allison Tyler Jones: It’s just that you’re sharing, “I love this, this is what I would do if I were you. But if you hate gold on principle, then do it in silver or whatever.” So I love that. It’s been a joy to watch you, you are fast actor, and you’re a woman of action. I think movement and action are very essential to who you are. It’s how you live your life in that van out there in the wild with your dogs.
Kristen Murray: Part-time van life, yeah. No, I feel like if you don’t, you’ll become stagnant. And then that’s when you start second-guessing yourself and second-guessing your business and making too many changes, and all the stuff, the rabbit holes that you don’t want to stay away from. So, yeah, fast action.
Allison Tyler Jones: So let me ask you about that too, just because now you made me think of something else. Okay. So, because I think a lot of creatives are big on change. We like change, and sometimes we do too much change. So how do you balance you take fast action, but you’re not just changing everything all the time? Because you’re fast, but you’re also steadily improving. You’ve taken a business in four years, you have a very high end, very niched business against probably most of the advice that you received like, “Don’t put yourself in a box.” And you’ve gotten super, super niche and you’re just killing it, you’re doing great with it. So do you have a thought on that like, “Yeah, I want to execute,” but then do you feel like you’re changing a lot or do you just kind of change a few things a year, or what are your thoughts on that?
Kristen Murray: So now that I’ve gotten to the place that I like, I don’t change a lot of things. I have a great process of how I work with my clients and my workflow and my experience. I will change my prices as needed to keep up with inflation and stuff, but I think a lot of the stuff when it comes to education works for me is I take the best bits of what I learn and make it work for my business. I don’t try to take my business and fit it into the X, Y, and Z box. And I think a lot of people, there’s another educator out there, and it’s like, “This is the only way to do things. And if you’re not doing it exactly like this, well, no wonder it’s not working for you.”
Kristen Murray: And I don’t like that. And that’s what I really love about you too, is that on a call, once you were like, “This is what I’m going to tell y’all to do. I know you’re not going to do it because you feel bad about something or whatever, but this is…” I always felt like you will work with people where they’re at and where they want to be, and it’s not a one size fits all. And there are so many other people out there who it is, “Follow everything that I do to a T. this is the only way it’s going to work.” I don’t like that. So I take the best bits of education and make it work for me.
Kristen Murray: And then once I get to a point where like, “This is working,” if it’s working, don’t why mess with it. If I’m going to change things, I’m going to change my hair color. If I’m going to change things, I’m going to do something outside of my business. It’s running like a well-old machine, I want to keep it that way. Yeah, I might test up some new things or I learned something and it’s fun, but that’s how I change in my business.
Allison Tyler Jones: I love that. That’s great. And I love that, just I want to highlight what you just said about when you learn something from any educator, you’re pulling that into your own world and saying, “How does this work for Kristen Murray and my business and how I’ve chosen, all these other decisions that I’ve made, how does this fit within this?” Rather than like, “How can I be somebody else?” And constantly chasing, because you can’t ever be somebody else. You can only ever be yourself.
Kristen Murray: Yes.
Allison Tyler Jones: And the more you are yourself, which I think is a perfect example, you’re a perfect example of that, is that you’ve taken this incredibly niche business and are doing really well with it. So I commend you, I think that you’re awesome, I really appreciate you’ve taken the time to share with our listeners your journey and some of your client experiences. And I know that it’s going to help so many, and so I really appreciate you being here today.
Kristen Murray: Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for having me on. I hope that, yeah, this can be a confidence push to have conversations with clients about anything and everything.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, because before you called her back, it’s not like you were not afraid, or it’s not like you were totally confident that that was going to work out okay, but you did it anyway.
Kristen Murray: Yeah. Oh, do it scared. That’s how I live my life and my business, do it scared.
Allison Tyler Jones: Yeah, do it scared, but if you’re going to be driving a front loader of mulch, make sure you have your seatbelt on and the door locked.
Kristen Murray: Yes, absolutely.
Allison Tyler Jones: That’s the final bit of advice today, seatbelt-
Kristen Murray: Never jump.
Allison Tyler Jones: Never jump.
Kristen Murray: Never jump. Yeah. You’ll die that way.
Allison Tyler Jones: Oh, interesting. Okay, yeah. So front loaders, don’t jump out of the vehicle.
Kristen Murray: Any type of machinery in a rollover, do not jump.
Allison Tyler Jones: Hold on to the steering wheel.
Kristen Murray: Yeah, you’ll die if you jump out of it.
Allison Tyler Jones: Okay. Interesting. Good to know. All right. Well, thank you so much, Kristen. I appreciate you.
Kristen Murray: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Allison.
Allison Tyler Jones: We’ll link to everybody on where to find you on Instagram, on your website, and all of that stuff so that everybody can find you and see your gorgeous work.
Kristen Murray: Thank you so much. This has been wonderful chatting with you.
Allison Tyler Jones: Thank you.
Recorded: You can find more great resources from Allison at dotherework.com and on Instagram @do.the.rework.
Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait…
Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait…
Recorded: Welcome to The ReWork with Allison Tyler Jones, a podcast dedicated to inspiring portrait…